IntenseImage
Community Member
What connection does the DOS use (just aquabus?)-- basically will it work with this new EL without the VDM module or is that really only for controlling pumps and lights?
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DOS operates on aquabus or optional 1link module with 1link cables. Using the 1link module and cables the DOS doesn’t need its own dedicated power supply ( correct me if I’m wrong).
Breadman03
Valuable Member
The DOS just needs Aquabus for the control.
Since you're in Northampton, I'd suggest checking out Something Fishy. Veronica can walk you through the gear, and I believe they have a full system set up where you can see how it all goes together. She's always been more interested in finding out what I need than just trying to sell me something.
Correct.
IntenseImage
Community Member
Yea we live just a few blocks from them and have seen their setup many times.
Z3speed4me
Well-Known Member
I for one only want and need the basics that an Apex offers, so this is a great introduction in my eyes. It will work with the Trident (uncertain if that will require an extra module or not) but that alone is a key factor for me as well in terms of compatibility and monitoring.
Not buying one today, but it is on my radar in the next few weeks to use on my new setup.
Not buying one today, but it is on my radar in the next few weeks to use on my new setup.
Sleepydoc
Valuable Member
I can’t see where the classic would have any place in the lineup at this point, but the Jr is at a completely different price point and with its more limited capabilities is really aimed at a different target group. What feature set would they put on the new Jr that would improve on the current model without raising the price and/or eating into the market for the Apex LE?
Drauka99
Active Member
That's basically my point. The JR will either be discontinued soon (to "force" more buyers into the LE market) or they will introduce a upgraded JR with the new processor (so it can use any of the new modules) and the LE market will suffer and die like the Lite did.
I am thinking the age of the processor design for the classic and JR will ultimately be their downfall, frankly the chipset manufacturer is probably not wanting to make more runs of them at this point.
I am thinking the age of the processor design for the classic and JR will ultimately be their downfall, frankly the chipset manufacturer is probably not wanting to make more runs of them at this point.
Z3speed4me
Well-Known Member
Arguably they have too many products to actively support; current lineup should only be an entry item like the LE, and then the high end for the normal apex. THAT'S IT. You either want to get your feet wet with monitoring and automation, or go big.
2nd gen systems should be their only focus going forward; move on with the times. As a perfect comparison I don't see people complaining all day about their radions that the gen4 can't be upgraded from a gen3 like the 1's and 2's could; you pay to play in this world. You upgrade to new tech or deal with what you have and accept it's not the new hotness on the block anymore.
My 2015 doesn't have apple car play, but the 2016 did... sucks but it is what it is.
2nd gen systems should be their only focus going forward; move on with the times. As a perfect comparison I don't see people complaining all day about their radions that the gen4 can't be upgraded from a gen3 like the 1's and 2's could; you pay to play in this world. You upgrade to new tech or deal with what you have and accept it's not the new hotness on the block anymore.
My 2015 doesn't have apple car play, but the 2016 did... sucks but it is what it is.
You will lose functionally going from the classic to the EL unless you add on a few modules and then you will be close to the price of the full APEX so the full APEX may still be the better upgrade.
sarcophytonIndy
Well-Known Member
My kessil alone requires two 0-10V ports, one for intensity and one for color balance.
LobsterOfJustice
Valuable Member
$500 for EL plus $100 for VDM still saves you $200 over the “full” Apex 2016.
If you need all the bells and whistles off the bat and have the cash to drop, then the full version (at the full price) is the one for you. But for those of us who find the price more manageable to build a system piece by piece over time, the EL is a great option.
Greybeard
2500 Club Member
I applaud Neptune for expanding their product line...
But this isn't what I was hoping for.
I'd really like to see a next gen Jr. Temp, pH, some method of digital input, 4 port power strip, and wireless, for <$200. Something to fit in the RKL market.
If they'd put the EL base unit for sale by it's lonesome for a decent price... The 2016 Apex base is half price from the full kit... Figure $250 for the stripped EL controller module? I might buy one to replace my Classic. It'll run the Neptune, when it comes out... and the Classic won't. Built in wireless... yeah, I might go $250.
Instead of ending life for the classic, they could reduce it's price...
Drop the Jr to $149, drop the Classic to $349. They could even drop the display module from both kits, if they need to drop something to get it to that price range. Might be surprised how many units they could sell at those price points.
But this isn't what I was hoping for.
I'd really like to see a next gen Jr. Temp, pH, some method of digital input, 4 port power strip, and wireless, for <$200. Something to fit in the RKL market.
If they'd put the EL base unit for sale by it's lonesome for a decent price... The 2016 Apex base is half price from the full kit... Figure $250 for the stripped EL controller module? I might buy one to replace my Classic. It'll run the Neptune, when it comes out... and the Classic won't. Built in wireless... yeah, I might go $250.
Instead of ending life for the classic, they could reduce it's price...
Drop the Jr to $149, drop the Classic to $349. They could even drop the display module from both kits, if they need to drop something to get it to that price range. Might be surprised how many units they could sell at those price points.
Thanks for the feedback. Always welcome. And we do listen. That is why we actually made the EL system available - after hearing from many customers that they wanted a lower cost system - but didn't want to sacrifice things like the EB832.
Often overlooked by many is that there is much more than just the cost of the hardware that goes into a product like ours. Similar to the Apple way, we have been innovating and updating what we do for 20+ years now - and our returns come in the way of hardware sales, not software or services. Because of this, many Apex users over the years have enjoyed incredible steps forward in the capabilities of their Apex without a single additional cost to them - for instance, some paid $500 in 2011 long before Apex Fusion was a sparkle in our eyes - and they have enjoyed all these advances to date. And this continues today. Just yesterday an update to Apex Fusion was pushed out that (among other things) enabled current late-model Apex customers the ability to control more 3rd party devices with no extra cost (AI LED). Additionally we announced that we are currently reviewing both Alexa and Android support in our NSI team and both of these will be available for Apex Classic and Apex Jr. users.
To bring something to market like you suggest, at the sub $200 price point, means that either one (or more) of a few things have to happen - either you must sell about 100x more than the current aquarium market allows, or your R&D budget and innovation must suffer, or your quality must suffer. And you do not have to take my word for it - DA, and others, have either not innovated much at all, or have died altogether by not pricing their products accordingly.
As I said, it is not always clear to the consumer how much cost there is involved in innovating, supporting, and the actual cloud infrastructure (and associated maintenance) required to provide what we do - and for tens of thousands of active customers. We get that and that's why I try and stay engaged in forums like this to help communicate what it is that we do.
I'm pretty sure the plan is to trim, not to expand.
The Neptune classic is approaching 10 years old. Imagine still trying to get support for a 10 year old cell phone or computer. As a computer based product gets to that age, it becomes hard to source the parts and perhaps more trouble than it's worth, especially at an ultra low price point.
Greybeard
2500 Club Member
Thanks for the response, glad to see you watching!
I, too, am in a business where R&D counts for a huge percentage of overhead. In fact, you can put my position and salary into that R&D budget, as that is most of what I do. I fully understand that you must have that R&D recovery line in your product pricing. Still, marketing a simple, inexpensive model seems a now vacant niche... and I'm certain that it is far less expensive for you to make that low price option run the same software than it would be to develop and maintain multiple software paths.
I'm certain that you've read the current thread on DA's leaving the industry... IMHO, there is a large hole left behind. A sub $200 device, capable of filling this gap, seems nearly a sure success. Take a look at BRS's video on justifying the Reefkeeper Lite as a replacement for a heater controller and light timer. It made sense... still does... IF you can keep that price low enough. The Inkbird heater controller is $30. A pair of decent light timers, about the same. A good power strip, and you're at the $100 level. A stripped Apex, with a 4 outlet power bar, temp probe, and a wireless chip could replace those items, and provide for MUCH enhanced capabilities... IF the price doesn't put it out of reach for those that would be considering the low tech solution.
Look, I'm just a hobbiest... You likely have much more knowledge about this market than I do. You tell me... what is the ratio controlled of reef aquaria to non-controlled aquaria? I'd guess it's something like 50-1. Until a year ago, I'd never owned one either. Been reefing for decades, never needed a controller, couldn't justify the cost. BRS's video convinced me to try one. A year later, I'm now a happy Apex Classic user, own several expansion modules, and would consider buying the EL base to replace the Classic, if they become available stand alone. My Apex does all sorts of things for me that I never would have considered, had I not made that first, cost justifiable move into the aquarium controller world. I'm even likely to be in the market for the Neptune device, when it's out and stable.
My point is this: A sub $200 device is a gateway to a customer base that IS NOT going to spend $400 or more on a controller that they really don't understand, and don't see a need for. I just can't see where extending your market into the realm of budget sensitive reefers could possibly be a drain on your R&D budget.
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