Can a DT really be disease-free?

[Humblefish]

It's not real clear why acriflavin treats brook, but when it comes to velvet, the only thing it's treating is the secondary bacterial infections that can cause just as much damage as the velvet itself. It's only a single step in the protocol to cure velvet.

+1 IME; there is no single step to treating velvet which works consistently.

I've had the highest success rate using this three step method:

1. 5 min FW dip. This clears the gills (so the fish can breathe properly) and forces 80-90% of the parasites to drop off the fish. This critical step is important because it gives the fish a fighting chance going into QT.
2. 90 min acriflavine bath. All those bite marks, where the parasites had been feeding, leave behind tiny holes just waiting to get infected. An antiseptic, such as acriflavine, helps to prevent this from happening.
3. 30 days in either copper or CP. This finishes off whatever parasites remain. Neither provides any immediate relief to the fish; but after the remaining trophonts drop off, encyst and try to reinfect your fish as free swimmers... copper or CP is in the water to zap them.

 

[Humblefish]

There really isn't much information about the long term sustainability of Ich strains that I can find except "10-11 months" or "it stays in the system indefinitely"

The problem is there are so many different strains of ich with varying life cycles. Some strains complete their entire life cycle in as little as two weeks, others four weeks, and at least one strain took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from their tomonts.

So long as fish are present, ich continues its life cycle for almost 4 years (on average). If another fish is introduced with ich, the new strain restarts the 4 year clock.

 

[Brew12]

Well this is good news then. So a free swimmer can not attach to a coral temporarily or even accidentally in the event you just finished qt for a coral and you added one the day before.

I know you can rinse them but I want a 100% ich free tank. Not trying to be a PITA, I am just determined to do this right!

Its really a great question and one I worry about a little. I do a Bayer dip on every new coral before it goes in my invert QT. I also do a Bayer dip between my invert QT and my DT. Not only would this likely kill any parasites in the water that came out with the frag but it also gives me 2 good rinses between the QT and DT. Not to mention reducing the likely hood of coral pests making it through to the DT.

 

[Best Fish-Jake]

I would choose one or the other. Most medications including copper can be harmful when mixed with hyposalinity

 

[Brew12]

Though a truly sterile tank is certainly possible, I think we have a lot less control than we think.

Maintaining a sterile tank isn't possible and it really shouldn't be anyone's goal. We have very little control over bacteria that makes it into our tanks and I have yet to see a quarantine protocol that even attempts this. This is why giving the fish a high quality food and minimizing stress in the DT is so important.
What we can do is prevent parasites from entering our DT as long as we understand their life cycles and what treatments they are susceptible to. This is the bio security we practice with our quarantine procedures. We aren't trying to keep everything out. We are trying to keep well documented and potentially dangerous parasites out.

 

[becks]

I think it's better to think of sterile as in parasite free, or sterile of the major killers we encounter.

I love Paul b's philosophy on reefing but I think for many people who attempt to mimic his technique are unable to do so as they lack the experience, knowledge and capability to do so, for example in U.K. It's near impossible to get live black worms.

I find it frustrating that in the UK many people don't QT and many people still post on Facebook saying polylab medic works and will cure ich, garlic still regularly crops up as a cure for ich. Any attempt to try to say otherwise will get loads of people saying you don't know what your talking about medic works brilliantly etc as a result I no longer visit any U.K. Sites or groups and r2r is really the best place

 

[Paul B]

Maintaining a sterile tank isn't possible and it really shouldn't be anyone's goal.

I also believe that as quarantine time increases, the chances of livestock mortality in quarantine also increases.

Finally, two things in this thread I agree with.

(Hello there Humble Buddy, Hope you are having a great day. )

for example in U.K. It's near impossible to get live black worms.[/QUOTE



If I were you, I would move. Blackworms are very important.

 

[Brew12]

I love Paul b's philosophy on reefing but I think for many people who attempt to mimic his technique are unable to do so as they lack the experience, knowledge and capability to do so, for example in U.K. It's near impossible to get live black worms.

I'm a big fan of his, also. In fact, I may try to set up a system designed to mimic his and see if I can have similar success. I have spent dozens of hours of research trying to figure out exactly what is required to have success and exactly what fish I could put in the system to make it work.

I find it frustrating that in the UK many people don't QT and many people still post on Facebook saying polylab medic works and will cure ich,

I have high hopes for products like Polylab Medic. We know that oxidizers will kill parasites like Cryptocaryon and can be reef safe. We need more scientific studies done to get better dosing information and verify the effectiveness. One thing I do know is that using Polylab Medic as directed will not work on all strains of Crypto because they don't line up with correctly with the life cycle we are trying to interrupt.

 

[Paul B]

I may try to set up a system designed to mimic his and see if I can have similar success. I have spent dozens of hours of research trying to figure out exactly what is required to have success and exactly what fish I could put in the system to make it work.

]

Mud, that's the secret, get some mud. And think natural, Don't try to kill parasites, embrace them, make friends with them, name them and invite them over for dinner. Some of them are probably even cute like little puppies

 

[leahfiish]

This is a very interesting thread. I think if the time and willpower are there, it is absolutely possible and beneficial to run a disease free tank. But it is a lot of extra effort to prophylactically treat fish, and to properly qt all corals and inverts. I think an observational qt is a good compromise as long as you have a little bit of time each day just to watch your fish - which, really, is the fun part of the hobby, at least for me. I just can't justify the extra time and expense to prophylactically treat every fish when I'm not also qting all of my inverts and corals, and I don't have the space for that right now. So I'm compromising and just going to observe my fish carefully for 4 weeks in qt, and make sure I buy healthy fish to begin with. There's a few online retailers popping up that have started to prophylactically treat their fish before selling them, and I am gladly supporting them by buying my fish from there.

 

[ngoodermuth]

This is a very interesting thread. I think if the time and willpower are there, it is absolutely possible and beneficial to run a disease free tank. But it is a lot of extra effort to prophylactically treat fish, and to properly qt all corals and inverts. I think an observational qt is a good compromise as long as you have a little bit of time each day just to watch your fish - which, really, is the fun part of the hobby, at least for me. I just can't justify the extra time and expense to prophylactically treat every fish when I'm not also qting all of my inverts and corals, and I don't have the space for that right now. So I'm compromising and just going to observe my fish carefully for 4 weeks in qt, and make sure I buy healthy fish to begin with. There's a few online retailers popping up that have started to prophylactically treat their fish before selling them, and I am gladly supporting them by buying my fish from there.

Just remember vendors saying they are prophylacticly treating with x medicine and actually completing full therapeutic treatment are two different things. Observing in QT is better than no QT at all, but just remember that sub -therapeutic treatment (low levels or shortened duration of medications) can actually mask the symptoms...causing them to pop-up weeks or even months later [emoji21]

Not saying they are intentionally trying to trick anyone...but they are running a business and trying to move those fish as quickly as practical while minimizing losses.

 

[leahfiish]

Just remember vendors saying they are prophylacticly treating with x medicine and actually completing full therapeutic treatment are two different things. Observing in QT is better than no QT at all, but just remember that sub -therapeutic treatment (low levels or shortened duration of medications) can actually mask the symptoms...causing them to pop-up weeks or even months later [emoji21]

Not saying they are intentionally trying to trick anyone...but they are running a business and trying to move those fish as quickly as practical while minimizing losses.

The place I'm referring to is completing full therapeutic treatments on all of their fish, that is their entire selling point. I questioned them thoroughly. that being said, mistakes do happen and I still recommend at least an observational qt for all fish but I'm glad to see a retailer offering that sevice, even if it's very limited in quantity and selection.

 

[Brew12]

The place I'm referring to is completing full therapeutic treatments on all of their fish, that is their entire selling point. I questioned them thoroughly. that being said, mistakes do happen and I still recommend at least an observational qt for all fish but I'm glad to see a retailer offering that sevice, even if it's very limited in quantity and selection.

Do you mind telling us who the vendor is? I wasn't aware that any vendors were selling prophetically treated fish.

 

[leahfiish]

Do you mind telling us who the vendor is? I wasn't aware that any vendors were selling prophetically treated fish.

Exotic reef creations, there are others that I'm looking into still.

 

[alanbetiger]

I know it will be a really long time for this reality. But it would be pretty awesome if the breeding programs become more of a part of the hobby. Then they can start making attempts of finding the individuals with better natural defenses and starting trying to breed out these susceptibilities. Quite a few times when someone has an outbreak there will be a few survivors, lets breed those survivors. I know, I know it'll be a long time.

 

[leepink23]

I mix my saltwater within 10 feet of my 20 gallon quarantine. Since ick can go airborne do I need to wait a certain time after mixing water before doing a water exchange?

 

[Crashjack]

Maintaining a sterile tank isn't possible and it really shouldn't be anyone's goal. We have very little control over bacteria that makes it into our tanks and I have yet to see a quarantine protocol that even attempts this.

I think it's better to think of sterile as in parasite free, or sterile of the major killers we encounter.

When I say "sterile", I use the term loosely to describe the elimination of parasites and infectious bacteria that might attack livestock. Living hundreds of miles from the nearest ocean, I doubt infectious bacteria that might attack fish or corals could be introduced except with already infected livestock, but I could be wrong. Obviously, a truly sterile tank would have no bacteria and would result in ammonia poisoning of livestock.

 

[Forsaken77]

If you aren't doing the tank transfer method, or mandatory 2 week copper dosing, can you be assured that crypto isn't on a fish? I've always thought that you didn't have to expose a quarantined fish to copper unless they are showing symptoms.

I always prophylactically treat quarantined fish with copper for 4 weeks. 2 weeks is too short of a time. Then they get a round of Prazipro before they have a chance at getting in my DT.

I had to treat an ich outbreak in the DT with rock and sand and it was a pain. There were too many fish flashing on rocks or the sand to remove them all and 3 were burrowing wrasses. I would've had to rip the tank apart to catch them. Good thing it's a FOWLR tank.

All is well now. I even got 2 Magnificent Foxface's to peacefully coexist in my tank, which is a rarity. They usually don't tolerate their same kind in a tank, but swim in pairs in the wild. The big one is double the size of the smaller one and ruffed it up at first. Now the smaller one follows the big one around, but the big one could care less. The big one is very skiddish. If I go to feed them and open the top too fast, I get a face full of water as she darts away.

 

[Humblefish]

I mix my saltwater within 10 feet of my 20 gallon quarantine. Since ick can go airborne do I need to wait a certain time after mixing water before doing a water exchange?

Does it get moved more than 10 feet away after mixing is complete? If so, any ich theronts should die within 48 hrs - however, velvet dinospores can last up to 15 days.

 

[Jimmyneptune]

Airborne? Really?
That seems like you would have to avoid any place that is reef related.
I saw a video on Reef Builders where a guy in Australia does a 90% water change with water from ocean. His tank was phenomenal.
What am I missing???