Chloroquine phosphate

[Humblefish]

Ok on day 13 of CP treatment Fowleri tang and personified angal eating less and less. No scratching or signs of ich. I intially dosed for 60 and have been replacing when I do water changes. I did see personifer scratch a couple of times but not the fowleri. Flukes? Internal worms? Or I doses too much CP and the metallic taste is Strong? Any help appreciated. Thanks Tom

It could be flukes, which praziquantel would treat.

If the fish had internal worms the only symptom would be white stringy poo.

 

[Thomashtom]

Ok but my tang was eating during this whole process and he was the worse Should I do a small water change to lower dosage to 40? Thanks

 

[Humblefish]

Ok but my tang was eating during this whole process and he was the worse Should I do a small water change to lower dosage to 40? Thanks

You can, but I would try lowering it down to 50mg/gal first. If appetite doesn't improve @ 50, do another WC to lower it down to 40. If the fish stops eating entirely, transfer into a non-medicated QT.

 

[ebushrow]

^^ Agree

Aren't we worried about biofilms though?

 

[Humblefish]

Aren't we worried about biofilms though?

???

 

[ebushrow]

???

Having live rock and sand in a qt...

 

[Humblefish]

Having live rock and sand in a qt...

That's a big no-no; especially when using Chloroquine. At least with copper it can (technically) be done if you are diligent about daily testing. Testing for CP in the water requires an expensive spectrophotometer (3k used - 10k brand new).

If I "agreed" with someone using Chloroquine with LR/sand in their tank, I must have been going through my alerts too quickly, and I apologize for the error.

 

[ebushrow]

That's a big no-no; especially when using Chloroquine. At least with copper it can (technically) be done if you are diligent about daily testing. Testing for CP in the water requires an expensive spectrophotometer (3k used - 10k brand new).

If I "agreed" with someone using Chloroquine with LR/sand in their tank, I must have been going through my alerts too quickly, and I apologize for the error.

Ok...I thought I missed something just wanted to clarify this as I am using CP right now....do you think the biofilm also extends to the sponge filter or media rings that people use?
(P.S. the questionable post is on pager 40 ...that's why I asked)

 

[Humblefish]

Ok...I thought I missed something just wanted to clarify this as I am using CP right now....do you think the biofilm also extends to the sponge filter or media rings that people use?
(P.S. the questionable post is on pager 40 ...that's why I asked)

I was just reading more on biofilms this morning. Apparently they can form on "virtually every non-shedding surface". So, I can only assume this would include sponges, ceramic rings, etc. Perhaps we can get @Gweeds1980's take on this as he has studied biofilms.

But if the above is true, it might be safer to use a bacteria in a bottle product to seed your QT or avoid using a sponge that has been sitting in the DT sump for months. @Gweeds1980 How quickly can a biofilm form on a new surface?

 

[mfinn]

I was just reading more on biofilms this morning. Apparently they can form on "virtually every non-shedding surface". So, I can only assume this would include sponges, ceramic rings, etc. Perhaps we can get @Gweeds1980's take on this as he has studied biofilms.

But if the above is true, it might be safer to use a bacteria in a bottle product to seed your QT or avoid using a sponge that has been sitting in the DT sump for months. @Gweeds1980 How quickly can a biofilm form on a new surface?

I think that since people have been using a seeded sponge in their quarantine tanks successfully, for a very long time speaks to it's effectiveness.

 

[Humblefish]

I think that since people have been using a seeded sponge in their quarantine tanks successfully, for a very long time speaks to it's effectiveness.

Well, copper wouldn't be impacted by biofilm and prazi really only needs 2-3 hours to do it's job. (I recommend at least 24 hours exposure time out of an abundance of caution.) So, the two main medications people use in QT are probably safe from biofilm.

However, Chloroquine phosphate, antibiotics, metronidazole, etc. require long-term exposure in order to be effective and can be degraded by biofilm. I am concerned this could be the reason why so many are losing fish to bacterial infections i.e. sometimes it seems like dosing antibiotics has little to no effect on an infection.

 

[Gweeds1980]

I was just reading more on biofilms this morning. Apparently they can form on "virtually every non-shedding surface". So, I can only assume this would include sponges, ceramic rings, etc. Perhaps we can get @Gweeds1980's take on this as he has studied biofilms.

But if the above is true, it might be safer to use a bacteria in a bottle product to seed your QT or avoid using a sponge that has been sitting in the DT sump for months. @Gweeds1980 How quickly can a biofilm form on a new surface?

From a sterile surface to formation of a robust biofilm without the addition of known bacteria (ie just leaving it to self populate) biofilm will normally occur within 2 to 3 months. This depends upon the species of bacteria available as some will form a biofilm more readily than others.

The speed at which biofilms are created is also largely down to environmental conditions, biofilm creation is essentially a defence response.

It needs to be made clear that a biofilm will not always be the end result of bacterial colonisation. If environmental conditions are favourable then it's unlikely one will be formed... instead bacteria will compete against one another.

So, in the case of a sponge filter in a sump... there is a good environment to grow, nutrients are readily available and the bacteria aren't under constant attack. It may well be that a biofilm in the sense we are talking about would never develop.

However, remove that sponge and put it in a QT with antibiotics then a biofilm will rapidly begin to develop as the bacteria communally respond to the attack.

So in short, it's fine to seed a sponge in the DT, but once it's been in a QT with meds it will need to be discarded... which is likely what we do in any case in the course of sterilising the QT.

 

[Humblefish]

@Gweeds1980 Great information! Thank you!

 

[Gweeds1980]

Well, copper wouldn't be impacted by biofilm and prazi really only needs 2-3 hours to do it's job. (I recommend at least 24 hours exposure time out of an abundance of caution.) So, the two main medications people use in QT are probably safe from biofilm.

However, Chloroquine phosphate, antibiotics, metronidazole, etc. require long-term exposure in order to be effective and can be degraded by biofilm. I am concerned this could be the reason why so many are losing fish to bacterial infections i.e. sometimes it seems like dosing antibiotics has little to no effect on an infection.

Just to clarify here... whilst the likes of copper and prazi won't be degraded by biofilm, it should be noted that both would likely trigger a defence response from bacteria so could accelerate biofilm formation.

In addition, you mention that biofilms could be responsible for the apparent ineffectiveness of antibiotics. This is true, biofilms are able to degrade antibiotics but in practice the bigger issue is that the antibiotics (even if they are effective against the bacteria on the fish) won't impact the bacteria within the biofilm. Thus you will likely have a remaining population of whatever bacteria infected said fish, within the biofilm. This makes it so much more important to break down and sterilise any QT if the purpose of it is to remove the risk of any diseases making it into the DT.

It would be next to impossible to remove a biofilm adhered to live rock or sand (within an aquarium... heating it up to a couple of hundred degrees c is another matter)... another good reason to stick with non porous, smooth surfaces only in a QT.

I would strongly recommend the use of biological washing detergent and high % h2o2 in the sterilisation process along with good old fashioned elbow grease to remove biofilms.

A good analogy is to consider the most familiar of biofilms - plaque. It doesn't matter how much expensive mouthwash you use, none of it will affect plaque in any meaningful way... give your teeth a darned good scrub and rinse with h2o2 and hey presto...

 

[Thomashtom]

This may sound like a stupid question but how do you know if your tank has biofilm in it? I have had a 65 gallon QT running for 2yrs and the chloroqine phoshate that ive been treating a tang and trigger is working. I am on my 25th day of treatment thanks Tom

 

[Humblefish]

This may sound like a stupid question but how do you know if your tank has biofilm in it? I have had a 65 gallon QT running for 2yrs and the chloroqine phoshate that ive been treating a tang and trigger is working. I am on my 25th day of treatment thanks Tom

There's no way of knowing really. And as @Gweeds1980 pointed out a particular biofilm might target a specific medication but leave all others alone. I would say the only way to be truly safe is to break down your QT in-between batches of fish and only use bacteria in a bottle to seed your QT.

 

[Thomashtom]

There's no way of knowing really. And as @Gweeds1980 pointed out a particular biofilm might target a specific medication but leave all others alone. I would say the only way to be truly safe is to break down your QT in-between batches of fish and only use bacteria in a bottle to seed your QT.

Hi it's been 30 days of CP. Can I or should I remove the CP with carbon and treat with Prazipro? How long should I treat them with Prazipro before putting them in DT? Should I be concerned leaving them QT without any ich repellent for a couple of days. Or should ich be eradicated? Thanks Tom

 

[Thomashtom]

Hi it's been 30 days of CP. Can I or should I remove the CP with carbon and treat with Prazipro? How long should I treat them with Prazipro before putting them in DT? Should I be concerned leaving them QT without any ich repellent for a couple of days. Or should ich be eradicated? Thanks Tom

 

[Gweeds1980]

There's no way of knowing really. And as @Gweeds1980 pointed out a particular biofilm might target a specific medication but leave all others alone. I would say the only way to be truly safe is to break down your QT in-between batches of fish and only use bacteria in a bottle to seed your QT.

Remember it's not just the issue of biofilms breaking down medication, it's that it could also harbour harmful bacteria which will be protected from antibiotic treatments.

Breaking down the QT is a sensible precaution as long as it is sterilised sufficiently. The majority of biofilms are visible, its the nooks and crannies which can be problematic. Using biological washing detergent and elbow grease will help as the enzymes will break down the biofilm, follow up with a good rinse with strong h2o2 to kill off anything remaining.

I am keen to point out that biofilms in general are not a bad thing... as posted elsewhere we rely on them for our nitrogenous waste processing. The danger in a QT environment is that harmful bacteria could be protected within the biofilm and / or the biofilm could break down medications rendering them useless.

 

[Humblefish]

Hi it's been 30 days of CP. Can I or should I remove the CP with carbon and treat with Prazipro? How long should I treat them with Prazipro before putting them in DT? Should I be concerned leaving them QT without any ich repellent for a couple of days. Or should ich be eradicated? Thanks Tom

Yes, run carbon for 24 hours and then begin Prazipro treatment. You can use this calculator to tell you when it's time to redose: http://marineparasites.com/paratreatmentcal.html

While treating with Prazipro, observe for symptoms of ich/velvet to ensure no parasites remain.