Converting from Elimi-NP to NP-Bacto-Balance

[sdreef]

I need help regarding the best way to convert from TM elmi-NP to NP-Bacto-balance.

A little about the system. It's an acropora dominant mixed reef a little over 2 years old. The tank is about 330 gallons, but the water volume when accounting for displacement is about 1000 liters. The tank is heavily stocked and I feed frequently in particular for some of the anthias. I started carbon dosing to help maintain nitrate and phosphates due to my heavy nutrient import.

Regarding some of the filtration and export methods, I perform and 2% daily automated water change, mechanical filtration, a protein skimmer, GFO in a reactor, refugium, and UV sterilizer. Regarding the UV sterilizer, I am unsure how this may affect the efficiency of the carbon dosing.

I started dosing elim-np approximately 5 months ago and progressively increased the volume of the dosing to the max recommended 0.5 mL/ 100L or 5mL / day in my system. In my system I observed the nitrate was decreased more than phosphates. The nitrates are now measuring <2 and phosphates measure 0.1 ppm. At this point, I'd like to maintain these levels and was looking to convert to NP-Bacto-Balance. I am unsure the best way to go about converting and appreciate recommendations. Do I use the same volume of NP-Bacto-Balance and just switch products or what is the recommended way to about this?

I appreciate the help. @Lou Ekus @Hans-Werner

 

[Cflow]

I don’t know if this is much help, but I use bacto balance, np plus, and np minus as needed depending on the tank. If no3/po4 get too high, I switch to np minus. If they too low i switch to np plus. When they are at a reasonable level, I use balance. All three seem to keep the tank looking good. Your tank looks amazing by the way.

 

[stoney7713]

I read on here before from Hans, they are designed the for you to swap between them as needed. If it gets to high, use elimi, in range use balance, too low use plus. Simple as that.

 

[sdreef]

I don’t know if this is much help, but I use bacto balance, np plus, and np minus as needed depending on the tank. If no3/po4 get too high, I switch to np minus. If they too low i switch to np plus. When they are at a reasonable level, I use balance. All three seem to keep the tank looking good. Your tank looks amazing by the way.

Thank you.

A few questions for you. Do you have these products on a doser or are you doing this manually? Are you using the same volume of each product based on what your measuring? How often do you measure your N/P?

I read on here before from Hans, they are designed the for you to swap between them as needed. If it gets to high, use elimi, in range use balance, too low use plus. Simple as that.

Thank you, I looked back at the past year plus of Hans' posts and didn't find specifically what I was looking for not sure if you know where you had read that? I know that they recommend specific carbon dosing products based on the measured phosphates in a system according to TM's carbon dosing scale. What I'm wondering is what volume of product to use. I'm dosing 5mL of Elimi-NP so do I just switch to 5mL of bacto balance?

Probably a question for @Hans-Werner, and not sure how much it matters, but is the concentration of the carbon polymer similar in the different products?

 

[stoney7713]

Thank you.

A few questions for you. Do you have these products on a doser or are you doing this manually? Are you using the same volume of each product based on what your measuring? How often do you measure your N/P?



Thank you, I looked back at the past year plus of Hans' posts and didn't find specifically what I was looking for not sure if you know where you had read that? I know that they recommend specific carbon dosing products based on the measured phosphates in a system according to TM's carbon dosing scale. What I'm wondering is what volume of product to use. I'm dosing 5mL of Elimi-NP so do I just switch to 5mL of bacto balance?

Probably a question for @Hans-Werner, and not sure how much it matters, but is the concentration of the carbon polymer similar in the different products?

It could have been in a video then. I'll see if I can't dig it up.

 

[Cflow]

I dose all three as needed manually. I have a 50 gallon system so just a pump or two daily. I recently had a dino takeover though so I stopped carbon dosing altogether. Once the Dinos were gone I restarted with np minus since I was adding a lot of phosphate to my system. Now everything is stable, so I’m dosing balance. I started Dr Tim’s bacteria in addition. Definitely good combo. I have absolutely no algae growing and the tank glass actually stays clean for a few days. I’m finally able to feed more heavily and start feeding my corals.

 

[stoney7713]

Thank you.

A few questions for you. Do you have these products on a doser or are you doing this manually? Are you using the same volume of each product based on what your measuring? How often do you measure your N/P?



Thank you, I looked back at the past year plus of Hans' posts and didn't find specifically what I was looking for not sure if you know where you had read that? I know that they recommend specific carbon dosing products based on the measured phosphates in a system according to TM's carbon dosing scale. What I'm wondering is what volume of product to use. I'm dosing 5mL of Elimi-NP so do I just switch to 5mL of bacto balance?

Probably a question for @Hans-Werner, and not sure how much it matters, but is the concentration of the carbon polymer similar in the different products?

At 47 mins it was Lou, sorry. But yes switch back and forth as needed.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

At 47 mins it was Lou, sorry. But yes switch back and forth as needed.

Yes but he does not specifically say switch and use the same ml of the switched to product. He just says switch so I understand what OP is saying and really he still did not get the answer he is looking for.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

I am curious of this cause about to switch to bacto any day aswell

 

[Tompickles]

I’d love to know the answer to this as well. I’ve been dosing plus np for a while now and am finally ready to switch to bacto balance

 

[((FORDTECH))]

The funny part is, I have read multiple threads on this even ones that Lou has responded to and the answer never comes out. It’s only said just a switch to the other product not how much of it to use if to use the same amount or not.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

I will assume the answer in the end is going to be to switch and then test test test test test again like normal

 

[eanastasio]

I followed the direction on the np bacto balance after dosing the usual 1ml per 100l of plus-np. Started at 0.2ml/ 100l (bank never carbon dosed before) and went up slowly. I don’t think the dosages cross over. But I’m sure you can dial in each one to use moving forward.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I need help regarding the best way to convert from TM elmi-NP to NP-Bacto-balance.

A little about the system. It's an acropora dominant mixed reef a little over 2 years old. The tank is about 330 gallons, but the water volume when accounting for displacement is about 1000 liters. The tank is heavily stocked and I feed frequently in particular for some of the anthias. I started carbon dosing to help maintain nitrate and phosphates due to my heavy nutrient import.

Regarding some of the filtration and export methods, I perform and 2% daily automated water change, mechanical filtration, a protein skimmer, GFO in a reactor, refugium, and UV sterilizer. Regarding the UV sterilizer, I am unsure how this may affect the efficiency of the carbon dosing.

I started dosing elim-np approximately 5 months ago and progressively increased the volume of the dosing to the max recommended 0.5 mL/ 100L or 5mL / day in my system. In my system I observed the nitrate was decreased more than phosphates. The nitrates are now measuring <2 and phosphates measure 0.1 ppm. At this point, I'd like to maintain these levels and was looking to convert to NP-Bacto-Balance. I am unsure the best way to go about converting and appreciate recommendations. Do I use the same volume of NP-Bacto-Balance and just switch products or what is the recommended way to about this?

I appreciate the help. @Lou Ekus @Hans-Werner

Increasing your feeding is a great way of natuarly increasing your NO3 concentration. If you PO4 is at a good concentration for you, but your NO3 is trending low, just increase feeding. Whether you animals eat the food or not, the NO3 will usually go up. It is my preferred method for increasing NO3.

 

[sdreef]

Increasing your feeding is a great way of natuarly increasing your NO3 concentration. If you PO4 is at a good concentration for you, but your NO3 is trending low, just increase feeding. Whether you animals eat the food or not, the NO3 will usually go up. It is my preferred method for increasing NO3.

Thank you for the reply. Happy to do that. I already feed them anywhere from 6-10 times / day, but the fish won't complain, lol.

If I understand correctly, I should just ignore the nitrate value and use the phosphate to determine the carbon dosing products. My measured phosphate also is continuing to gradually trend down through the variety of export methods mentioned above and is hovering around 0.1 ppm. Once measured phosphate reaches 0.1 ppm, TM recommends bacto-balance.

I have a specific question that I was hoping TM could address. I am unsure the best way to go about converting from elimi-np to bacto-balance. Do I use the same volume of Bacto-Balance as I was using for elimi-np and just switch products or what is the recommended way to go about this?

I have been using the product for 5 months and the volume of the dose has been stable for 3 months, so hoping to get some official guidance to maximize system stability as I switch to the new recommended product.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

Thank you for the reply. Happy to do that. I already feed them anywhere from 6-10 times / day, but the fish won't complain, lol.

If I understand correctly, I should just ignore the nitrate value and use the phosphate to determine the carbon dosing products. My measured phosphate also is continuing to gradually trend down through the variety of export methods mentioned above and is hovering around 0.1 ppm. Once measured phosphate reaches 0.1 ppm, TM recommends bacto-balance.

I have specific question that I was hoping TM could address. I am unsure the best way to go about converting from elimi-np to bacto balance. Do I use the same volume of Bacto-Balance as I was using for elimi-np and just switch products or what is the recommended way to go about this?

I have been using the product for 5 months and the volume of the dose has been stable for 3 months, so hoping to get some official guidance to maximize system stability as I switch to the new recommended product.

I noticed question still has not been answered lol

 

[Lou Ekus]

We have "recommended maximum dose" on all of our products. Every tank will respond differently to each product, no matter what company you are talking about. My suggestion is always to start with a dose that is somewhat lower than the recommended maximum dose. This is a judgement call that each hobbyist must make knowing thier own tank. If the tank is taking a maximum dose of the previous product to reduce or raise the PO4, then closer to the maximum recommended dose makes sense. If the tank was taking a smaller fraction of the recommended dose of the precious product, then a smaller dose of the one you are switching to makes more sense. The key is to just switch from one to the other, pick a dose quanitity that makes sense to you, then follow your parameters with some testing during the first week or two after switching. The tank will tell you if it needs more or less. There is no "absolute" solution to these things. It just takes a little observation and common sense. Don't go chasing numbers to the end of the earth. Just use the tests to inform your decision to increase or decrease the dosage of the new product a little.
I hope this answers the question. We never mean to evade answering this question. There just isn't one answer for the percentage of dosing that will work for every tank. Just like everything else, you need to listen to what your tank is telling you.
In the end, if you have more specific qurestions about the switching or increases or decreases of dosing, I am always available, in our office for a phone chat. My number is 413-367-0101.
Lastly. @((FORDTECH)) Maybe this explains things in your opinion. The answer you gave of switching and testing is basicaly true. As it is with most things. That is something I have said many times. Making myself always available by phone, to help hobbyists needing more assitance, is the other thing I always try to do. Avoiding answering specific questions is something that you will have a hard time pinning to me. I'm not complaining, just making a point.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

We have "recommended maximum dose" on all of our products. My suggestion is always to start with a dose that is somewhat lower than the recommended maximum dose. This is a judgement call that each hobbyist must make knowing thier own tank. If the tank is taking a maximum dose of the previous product to reduce or raise the PO4, then closer to the maximum recommended dose makes sense. If the tank was taking a smaller fraction of the recommended dose of the precious product, then a smaller dose of the one you are switching to makes more sense.

Now this makes sense to me and is what I was looking for. Switching from one product to the next you wouldn’t use the same dosage but approximately the same percentage of the maximum dosage recommended for that product again starting a little lower then that is what would be used also confirmed with testing to make sure it is right. Thanks for the clarification Lou

 

[Hans-Werner]

If I understand correctly, I should just ignore the nitrate value and use the phosphate to determine the carbon dosing products. My measured phosphate also is continuing to gradually trend down through the variety of export methods mentioned above and is hovering around 0.1 ppm. Once measured phosphate reaches 0.1 ppm, TM recommends bacto-balance.

I have a specific question that I was hoping TM could address. I am unsure the best way to go about converting from elimi-np to bacto-balance. Do I use the same volume of Bacto-Balance as I was using for elimi-np and just switch products or what is the recommended way to go about this?

I have been using the product for 5 months and the volume of the dose has been stable for 3 months, so hoping to get some official guidance to maximize system stability as I switch to the new recommended product.

Lou has already given some very good explanations. I just want to add some background information.

- Organic carbon dosing works also together with UV. Most bacteria are substrate bound. Excessive bacterial growth and biofilms are sloughed off and skimmed or filtered by mechanical filtration.

- Elimi-NP and NP-Bacto-Balance have the same organic carbon concentration, only the nutrient concentrations are different. So you can skip directly from one product to the other or take a step with 50 % dosage of each. Same organic carbon concentration, same dosing volume.

- Like you already state, the nitrate concentration is not important since it is only one of different available nitrogen compounds, and it is the least important one.

Organic carbon dosing increases the nutrient cycling and in this way reduces the oxidation of reduced nitrogen compounds like amino acids and ammonium to nitrate but rather keeps them cycling between bacteria, protists, detritus feeders and filter feeders. If enough phosphate is available just assume nitrogen is it also.

- I recommend to use phosphate adsorbers only if absolutely necessary. Phosphate is not the "bad" nutrient it was suspected to be. Rather phosphate is the nutrient that supports growth and colors of corals more than nitrate does.

My suggestion is: Stop or reduce using phosphate adorbers, continue using Elimi-NP instead and adjust phosphate concentration between 0.1 and 0.2 ppm, ignore nitrate.

Are you adding trace elements as All-For-Reef or K+ and A- Elements already? If not, I recommend to start adding trace elements.

 

[sdreef]

- I recommend to use phosphate adsorbers only if absolutely necessary. Phosphate is not the "bad" nutrient it was suspected to be. Rather phosphate is the nutrient that supports growth and colors of corals more than nitrate does.

My suggestion is: Stop or reduce using phosphate adorbers, continue using Elimi-NP instead and adjust phosphate concentration between 0.1 and 0.2 ppm, ignore nitrate.

Are you adding trace elements as All-For-Reef or K+ and A- Elements already? If not, I recommend to start adding trace elements.

Thank you @Hans-Werner !! This was precisely what I was hoping to learn. Also, @Lou Ekus, thank you for being available to discuss and clarify yesterday.

My goal has been stop using phosphate adsorbers. In fact, I didn't use any for the first year. The tank looked very good, and so I knowingly didn't intervene with phosphate levels. Phosphate level continued to rise as I didn't adjust my nutrient export methods sufficiently, and I did run into problems once the phosphate exceeded 1.0 ppm, unclear if it was all related to phosphate. Never had an algae problem though.

All that to say, it's my goal to stop using the phosphate adsorber. I'm aware they're nonspecific for phosphates and imprecise, and would prefer not to strip the water. I agree with your suggestion and was approaching a level where I was feeling I could consider that. This was also one of the reasons I started using elmi-np.

Regarding trace elements, I mentioned the 2% daily water change. This may help with trace elements to a degree. Also, I have a large water reservoir with fresh salt water I mix up once every few weeks. In addition to the salt I supplement manganese, iodine, and fluorine to this water. I also dose a small amount of iron to the system. Perhaps A- and K+ may be simpler and more complete.

@Hans-Werner I'm hoping to understand the reason for the recommendation of the trace elements addition? These play an important role in enzymatic and microbiologic processes? They facilitate more efficient reduction in phosphates? I appreciate all of the information.