Current Quarantine Protocol

[BamaCoastPyrat]

Good morning @Jay Hemdal , I have reached the praziquantrel stage of your QT protocol. I am using prazipro. How does the praziquantrel work? Is it something that we raise to the desired level with the first dose and it fades over the course of the seven days or does it remain in the water column? Specifically, I am wondering if I can do water changes between treatments.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Good morning @Jay Hemdal , I have reached the praziquantrel stage of your QT protocol. I am using prazipro. How does the praziquantrel work? Is it something that we raise to the desired level with the first dose and it fades over the course of the seven days or does it remain in the water column? Specifically, I am wondering if I can do water changes between treatments.

Praziquantel works by causing the flukes to relax and drop off the fish, once off, they cannot reattach. Prazi does not remain active for long - you can do a partial water change three days after the treatment. The reason for spacing out the doses for 8 or 9 days is not because the prazi stays active that long, but rather, you need to wait for any fluke eggs to hatch out and then reattach to the fish, and then kill them before they in turn can lay new eggs (prazi doesn't harm the eggs).

Jay

 

[BamaCoastPyrat]

Praziquantel works by causing the flukes to relax and drop off the fish, once off, they cannot reattach. Prazi does not remain active for long - you can do a partial water change three days after the treatment. The reason for spacing out the doses for 8 or 9 days is not because the prazi stays active that long, but rather, you need to wait for any fluke eggs to hatch out and then reattach to the fish, and then kill them before they in turn can lay new eggs (prazi doesn't harm the eggs).

Jay

Perfect. Thank you

 

[Weeb]

Days 3 – 32: Continue Copper Treatment

Wouldn't a 14-day treatment with copper, then transfer to a clean (without copper) observation tank work?

After 2 weeks worth of therapeutic copper the fish themselves should no longer be infected. (Any ich/velvet trophonts will have dropped off within 7 days and the presence of therapeutic copper shields the fish from reinfection.) So, after 2 weeks in therapeutic copper (extra 7 days for good measure) an opportunity exists to transfer the fish away from the treatment tank (and away from any leftover parasite tomonts.)

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Wouldn't a 14-day treatment with copper, then transfer to a clean (without copper) observation tank work?

After 2 weeks worth of therapeutic copper the fish themselves should no longer be infected. (Any ich/velvet trophonts will have dropped off within 7 days and the presence of therapeutic copper shields the fish from reinfection.) So, after 2 weeks in therapeutic copper (extra 7 days for good measure) an opportunity exists to transfer the fish away from the treatment tank (and away from any leftover parasite tomonts.)

In theory it should, but the trouble is that everyone thinks that Cryptocaryon and Amyloodinium have these exactly "set-in-stone" life cycles. There is a lot of variance/slop - Amyloodinium may not even need to leave the fish in some cases. Lengthening the treatment time helps with that. Also, short copper treatment work better with ionic copper than with coppersafe or copper power. However, those ionic copper products create more adverse effects. It is a trade off between safety and efficacy then. Finally, we have a huge issue with "new tank syndrome" in people's home aquariums, and having them move the fish to a new tank is just asking for trouble.

There is an extra "safety stop" used by some public aquariums - they run the copper for ~18 days, then pull the copper and run anthelminthics and then add copper for 72 hours and clear the fish from quarantine at that point. This knocks a week off the time.


Jay

 

[brandon429]

@Jay Hemdal

I want to laterally pass a unique cycle to see

Nano Build - First 8.5G cube tank, ocean water, learning curve.

Hi Everyone! I am totally new to this forum, and totally new to marine tanks! I have some experience in freshwater tanks and now it is a time to check if I can use my knowledge and have some fun with salt water. The aim is to not spend a fortune, learn as much on my own and other mistakes and...

www.reef2reef.com

consider his sourcewater, the location, the temps/all the macro stuff on how that water source makes his nano cycle not like any on the board

how is ocean water handled when it's being converted into aquarium water/concentrated bioload per unit of measure

how is fish disease assumed in that water for our tropicals

does the fact that water is so cold change it's risk as a disease vector in a tropical reef tank

would you just again fallow out the system/I assume *every water change requires fallowed water* that's his unique challenge among vector control designs in my opinion. that's a neat cycle. we won't see another one of those all year is the bet.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal

I want to laterally pass a unique cycle to see

Nano Build - First 8.5G cube tank, ocean water, learning curve.

Hi Everyone! I am totally new to this forum, and totally new to marine tanks! I have some experience in freshwater tanks and now it is a time to check if I can use my knowledge and have some fun with salt water. The aim is to not spend a fortune, learn as much on my own and other mistakes and...

www.reef2reef.com

consider his sourcewater, the location, the temps/all the macro stuff on how that water source makes his nano cycle not like any on the board

how is ocean water handled when it's being converted into aquarium water/concentrated bioload per unit of measure

how is fish disease assumed in that water for our tropicals

does the fact that water is so cold change it's risk as a disease vector in a tropical reef tank

would you just again fallow out the system/I assume *every water change requires fallowed water* that's his unique challenge among vector control designs in my opinion. that's a neat cycle. we won't see another one of those all year is the bet.

The way I read it, he intends for this to be a fishless system, so I wouldn't be too concerned about bringing in parasites from the wild. I don't know how clean the water is 6 miles off shore in Ireland. In the Florida Keys, that would be in the Gulf Stream and it would be fine. Offs, say Boston, I wouldn't use it that close to shore.

There are many ways to prepare natural seawater for use in aquariums. I prefer micro-filtration, but some people sterilize and then neutralize the sterilant. Other people heat the water up, or leave it sealed in the dark for a month.


Jay

 

[brandon429]

Ok thank you very much

 

[bozo]

I'm going to be following this guide to the tee.

The only question I have.

Do we dose the ATO reservoir with copper too?

Thanks

Edit: Just realized that copper doesnt evaporate. So no need to dose the ato

 

[ConsummatePro]

I can’t really keep a QT tank running indefinitely but want to be able to get one up and running in an instant (after making new salt water).

What do you think of sterilizing bio media from a QT before putting it back into the display tank so it can be re-seeded for biological filtration in an emergency/fresh QT setup?

I have ceramic bio media as well as Seachem Matrix. I was thinking of boiling it after finishing a QT cycle then letting the media sit in my sump for future use.

This would take care of pathogens and assuming the media doesn’t break down, I think this should work with respect to bacterial colonies.

My other concern is how much copper or medications (be it prazipro, metronidazole, hydroxychloroquine, etc) might leach back out into the DT assuming the material is ceramic or Seachem Matrix? My DT is 165G with a 40 breeder sump so there’s lots of dilution and the media is approx 2 cups.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm going to be following this guide to the tee.

The only question I have.

Do we dose the ATO reservoir with copper too?

Thanks

Edit: Just realized that copper doesnt evaporate. So no need to dose the ato

Correct, no need to add copper to the ATO.

Copper can react with calcareous material in the tank though, so you need to measure the copper level with a good test kit (Hann HR checker is the best) and adjust accordingly.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I can’t really keep a QT tank running indefinitely but want to be able to get one up and running in an instant (after making new salt water).

What do you think of sterilizing bio media from a QT before putting it back into the display tank so it can be re-seeded for biological filtration in an emergency/fresh QT setup?

I have ceramic bio media as well as Seachem Matrix. I was thinking of boiling it after finishing a QT cycle then letting the media sit in my sump for future use.

This would take care of pathogens and assuming the media doesn’t break down, I think this should work with respect to bacterial colonies.

My other concern is how much copper or medications (be it prazipro, metronidazole, hydroxychloroquine, etc) might leach back out into the DT assuming the material is ceramic or Seachem Matrix? My DT is 165G with a 40 breeder sump so there’s lots of dilution and the media is approx 2 cups.

You don't need to sterilize the media for disease reasons - you're moving fish from the QT to the DT, so if there is a disease in the QT, you've already transferred it. The other medications on the bio media are not an issue - just give it a quick rinse in seawater. Copper can be an issue though - but since the quarantine system we describe has a period at the end with no copper, and if you rinse the media well, it is o.k.

Jay

 

[mfinn]

I can’t really keep a QT tank running indefinitely but want to be able to get one up and running in an instant (after making new salt water).

What do you think of sterilizing bio media from a QT before putting it back into the display tank so it can be re-seeded for biological filtration in an emergency/fresh QT setup?

I have ceramic bio media as well as Seachem Matrix. I was thinking of boiling it after finishing a QT cycle then letting the media sit in my sump for future use.

This would take care of pathogens and assuming the media doesn’t break down, I think this should work with respect to bacterial colonies.

My other concern is how much copper or medications (be it prazipro, metronidazole, hydroxychloroquine, etc) might leach back out into the DT assuming the material is ceramic or Seachem Matrix? My DT is 165G with a 40 breeder sump so there’s lots of dilution and the media is approx 2 cups.

I don't keep a qt tank running all the time either.
I use air powered sponge filters ( 5" x 6" ) and keep one going in the sump of my display tank all the time.
Once I use the sponge filter in the qt tank I usually just toss the sponge part and replace it. Usually $2-$3. I keep a few on hand.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

While on the subject of running a nonstop QT tank.

What ive been doing is a 100% water change after every QT is completed, and just run the tank empty until I get more fish. Is there any downside to this? It seems to have completely eliminated the cycle aspect and i haven't had to do nearly any water changes through the initial observation or copper treatment. This last one I am on 1st prazi, i only had to do 1 water change before the big one to get copper out.

I keep 100% of the water vollume right next to the tank in case there is a fish issue that would benefit from a change, but my nutrients haven't climbed enough for me to bother with it.

Also, should I be doing more water changes for QT without waiting for a parameter change or fish concern to trigger it?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

While on the subject of running a nonstop QT tank.

What ive been doing is a 100% water change after every QT is completed, and just run the tank empty until I get more fish. Is there any downside to this? It seems to have completely eliminated the cycle aspect and i haven't had to do nearly any water changes through the initial observation or copper treatment. This last one I am on 1st prazi, i only had to do 1 water change before the big one to get copper out.

I keep 100% of the water vollume right next to the tank in case there is a fish issue that would benefit from a change, but my nutrients haven't climbed enough for me to bother with it.

Also, should I be doing more water changes for QT without waiting for a parameter change or fish concern to trigger it?

Some people will “ghost feed” their QT if they will be empty for more than a month or so.
Personally, I let water quality results to dictate water changes, so empty tanks don’t get as many.
Jay

 

[Weeb]

Thanks for the reply.

What support/confirmations can I find regarding:
Amyloodinium ocellatum (Marine Velvet) not leaving the fish;
That ionic copper is more effective over Coppersafe or Copper Power; and
Which anthelmintic drugs are being used.

I appreciate your counsel.

In theory it should, but the trouble is that everyone thinks that Cryptocaryon and Amyloodinium have these exactly "set-in-stone" life cycles. There is a lot of variance/slop - Amyloodinium may not even need to leave the fish in some cases. Lengthening the treatment time helps with that. Also, short copper treatment work better with ionic copper than with coppersafe or copper power. However, those ionic copper products create more adverse effects. It is a trade off between safety and efficacy then. Finally, we have a huge issue with "new tank syndrome" in people's home aquariums, and having them move the fish to a new tank is just asking for trouble.

There is an extra "safety stop" used by some public aquariums - they run the copper for ~18 days, then pull the copper and run anthelminthics and then add copper for 72 hours and clear the fish from quarantine at that point. This knocks a week off the time.


Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the reply.

What support/confirmations can I find regarding:
Amyloodinium ocellatum (Marine Velvet) not leaving the fish;
That ionic copper is more effective over Coppersafe or Copper Power; and
Which anthelmintic drugs are being used.

I appreciate your counsel.

Ionic copper just seems to work faster than coppersafe or copper power in clearing protozoan infections. I used it for 20+ years but eventually switched due to toxicity issues. Coppersafe and copper power are great at preventing protozoan infections, but are slow to kill active / acute infections.
The idea about Amyloodinium not always leaving the fish and being able to complete its life cycle in the gills is something that has been suspected for decades. Both Blasiola and Noga mention internal tomonts being found. Finally, the failure of TTM so often with this disease indicates that it’s life cycle is not as predictable as people think.
Typically, the antihelmenthic I mentioned is just prazi, but some aquariums also treat for nematodes.
Jay

 

[PotatoPig]

Hi Jay,

I’m embarking on my first attempt at QT, and saw this thread after starting today… Regarding the cycle media - is the main goal of this to avoid having to do large numbers of water changes? My plan prior to this was based on the BRS 80/20 QT that involves changes every few days.

In terms of suitable media for the cycle would a filter sock cut to the size of the QT tank HOB filter and then soaked in the sump for a couple months be an acceptable method of providing media? I ask as this is something I happen to have on hand …

Or would something like bio balls be better to get for the future and just keep them in the sump until needed for QT exercises. My apologies if this has been well covered already.

My QT setup is a Aqueon 10 gallon, that came with hood, itty bitty lights in hood, HOB, and preset heater. If I’m trying to provide a tank that’s cycled for QT would this be sufficient for a couple small fish at a time? In this specific case a couple of zebra dart fish.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay,

I’m embarking on my first attempt at QT, and saw this thread after starting today… Regarding the cycle media - is the main goal of this to avoid having to do large numbers of water changes? My plan prior to this was based on the BRS 80/20 QT that involves changes every few days.

In terms of suitable media for the cycle would a filter sock cut to the size of the QT tank HOB filter and then soaked in the sump for a couple months be an acceptable method of providing media? I ask as this is something I happen to have on hand …

Or would something like bio balls be better to get for the future and just keep them in the sump until needed for QT exercises. My apologies if this has been well covered already.

My QT setup is a Aqueon 10 gallon, that came with hood, itty bitty lights in hood, HOB, and preset heater. If I’m trying to provide a tank that’s cycled for QT would this be sufficient for a couple small fish at a time? In this specific case a couple of zebra dart fish.

The best media would be an air driven sponge filter or ceramic matrix that has been in an operating tank for at least 3 months.

The problem with the "no bio filter" methods like BRS or TTM is that they take a huge amount of water in some cases in order to just manage the ammonia.

Jay

 

[PotatoPig]

The best media would be an air driven sponge filter or ceramic matrix that has been in an operating tank for at least 3 months.

The problem with the "no bio filter" methods like BRS or TTM is that they take a huge amount of water in some cases in order to just manage the ammonia.

Jay

Thank you - I’ll try get prep underway for future QT, but looks like I’m going to have to do the multi water change option for this one.

Not trying to be “cheap”, but assuming good water parameters in the DT could I use tank water following water changes on the DT for the QT tank?

In my head this makes sense - water is OK, and gets the fish used to the same water they’re gonna be put in after QT so hopefully minimizes shock on transfer. Or is there more to it than that?