Cycling an Aquarium

iMi

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I can’t get a fish now due to ammonia

Ok, so add 2/3rd bottle of bio-spira and test daily. When the ammonia goes down, nitrites will spike, then those will go down and nitrates will start rising. Add fish when ammonia is zero and nitrites are nearly undetectable.

Then do a boost of bio-spira with the remaining 1/3rd you have left over and leave it be. Let nature take over from there.
 

brandon429

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Chris is spamming the whole site, I just got this pm spam

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ChrisRose305

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I have high ammonia and my tank is 75 gallon tank with two filtration systems fluvial 306 and fluvial 307 80 pounds of live sand 16 pieces of live rock idk how many pounds that is 2 200watt heaters but I have been running my tank since Dec 20 2020. I had two clownfish and 3-4 hermit crabs and I had 2 more clownfish two-three weeks later and 2 snowflake eels and they all died. I test my ammonia and it is extremely high 8.0ppm. at one point of time I added Dr Tim ammonia chloride thinking it will lower my ammonia. Any way I can lower my ammonia?
 
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Somewhere I have a pdf of a study documenting where they tested this in a lab and document how different AOB's prefer higher and lower ammonia levels. This seems to be fairly commonly seen, but is hard to say how much of this is related to the accuracy issues of testing. While it is true that some bacteria may lower ammonia faster from 5ppm to 2ppm than they will from 2ppm to 1ppm it is also possible that that hobbyists only think this is happening because of the more significant color change between higher numbers imo.
Thanks! Very cool. If you run across that .pdf I'd love a look.

BTW, It was biospira that plowed right through 5ppm ammonia without any delay.
I'm sure though every strain of AOB in a bottle has some upper limit. NH3 is strong stuff.
 
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Thanks! Very cool. If you run across that .pdf I'd love a look.

BTW, It was biospira that plowed right through 5ppm ammonia without any delay.
I'm sure though every strain of AOB in a bottle has some upper limit. NH3 is strong stuff.
I have a hard drive in a dead computer that I used to store my research and I need to try and recover it. So many good files lost.... just need the time.
I did have a link to this one, which I found very interesting. It does get into preferential ammonia levels but also addresses recovery from starvation.
Growth at Low Ammonium Concentrations and Starvation Response as Potential Factors Involved in Niche Differentiation among Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacteria (nih.gov)
 

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Cycling a new aquarium.

One of the earliest topics a new aquarium hobbyist needs to learn is how to properly cycle their aquarium. There is a ton of information on this process and many different methods on how to accomplish it. There are many different chemical and biological cycles our tank goes through as it matures but this addresses the one most commonly discussed.


What is cycling?

The term cycling comes from the process known as the “Nitrogen Cycle”. When a plant or animal decays, or an animal expels waste, nitrogen is released. In our aquariums we initially see this as ammonia. Bacteria converts the ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate. When we have enough bacteria to quickly convert ammonia to nitrate, we say that our tank has cycled. This is deceiving because the process doesn’t stop at this point and it is never complete. For this reason we need to think of this as establishing a large enough bacteria population to support fish, not completing a cycle.
DSC_0048.JPG

Ammonia is a waste product of a fish’s cellular activity which is expelled through their gills. If the ammonia in the water is higher than in their blood it cannot be released and builds up in the fish causing cell damage. Nitrosomonas bacteria use ammonia as food and convert it to nitrite.

Nitrite is also harmful to fish. In a fish, nitrites hinder the ability of its blood to carry oxygen. Nitrites are a serious issue in fresh water systems. The same receptors in a fish that would absorb nitrites have a higher affinity for chlorides. The chlorides in saltwater block nitrites from being absorbed and protects the fish in marine systems. We rely on a different species of bacteria, Nitrobacter, to convert nitrite to nitrate.

Nitrates are relatively harmless for fish unless it reaches very high levels. Nitrates leaves our tank in any number of ways. We get rid of it via water changes. Algae and some corals can consume it as food.

The last part of the cycle is when nitrate is converted to nitrogen gas. This is done by anaerobic bacteria inside porous rock or within deep sand beds. Not every aquarium has the necessary conditions for this to occur

What conditions do I need for the cycle to occur?

To provide a good environment for the bacteria, we only need to make sure they are wet, oxygenated, and the pH is between 6.5 and 8.5. They will grow best at a temperature close to where we keep our tanks however they will still survive and reproduce at temperatures between 45F and 100F. We also want to monitor ammonia during this process. If ammonia gets over 5ppm it can slow down the rate bacteria reproduce. Above 10ppm it can stall the cycle.
frag tank (2).JPG

How does rock affect the cycle?

The rock in a marine tank is the core of its filtration system. We use porous rock to provide as much surface area as possible for bacteria to grow on. The water flowing around the rock brings the ammonia and nitrites to the bacteria. If the rock is large enough it may have anaerobic bacteria deep within it that can convert the nitrates to nitrogen gas.

There are many types of rock that are available in our hobby. I won’t get into all of the different types but I do want to address how dry and live rock impacts the cycle

Dry rock is just that. It is rock that has been dried out and has nothing alive on it. Dry rock can be “clean” where it is considered safe to put directly into an aquarium. If it is not clean it will need to be cured prior to use. Either way, it will not contain nitrifying bacteria. This isn’t a problem as nitrifying bacteria are everywhere and it would be impossible to keep them out of our aquarium even if we wanted to.

Live rock is rock that does have living bacteria on it. The main reason to use live rock is to speed up the cycling process. Just like with dry rock, not all live rock is ready to put immediately in an aquarium. For simplicity I am going to put live rock in 2 broad categories. If your live rock came directly out of a marine system and is kept submerged in quality water during transport you can put it directly into your tank. If the rock was exposed to air or shipped damp then it needs to be cured prior to use. The bacteria on this rock will be fine but other living things may have died and should be removed prior to putting it in your tank.
fish.jpg


How do I feed the bacteria?

There are many different takes on this and it is largely a matter of opinion. So here are the most common ways from worst to best in my opinion.

Adding a fish – while it will work as an ammonia source, why would you make a fish suffer in an environment in which it can’t properly shed its toxins?

Ghost feeding – When you add food to the tank you are adding much more than just what breaks down to ammonia. While none of it will be a problem, other than possibly algae, this is an uncontrolled process.

Adding a shrimp – The shrimp will decay and create ammonia, but again, this is an uncontrolled process. How much ammonia will this add and how quickly? I don’t know.

Dosing pure ammonia – This is the only method I will ever use in the future. You can measure exactly how much you need to add to achieve a specific level of ammonia. You can measure just how quickly your bacteria consume it to judge the health of your bacteria population.

How do I recommend doing it?

I’m glad you asked! I’ll start from the point where the tank is set up, filled, has flow, and temperature is in the normal range. It doesn’t matter if you used live or dry rock.

I will either use pure ammonia or ammonium chloride to raise the total ammonia to 2ppm. I will test for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates daily until ammonia is near 0ppm. I will then dose it back up to 2ppm while continuing daily tests. I will repeat this process in a smaller tank until ammonia goes from 2ppm to 0ppm within 24 hours. In tanks that are 90g+ that will be stocked slowly I will only dose to 1ppm ammonia after the initial dose and consider it cycled when it drops from 1ppm to 0ppm in 24 hours. This is to limit nitrates in larger tanks. Keep in mind that a 120g system that drops 1ppm in a day can support more fish than a 40g tank that drops 2ppm in a day.

IMG_0527 (2).JPG

But I still have questions!


Ok, let me see if I can answer some of the more common ones.


If nitrifying bacteria are everywhere, why are “bacteria in a bottle” products so popular?

Nitrifying bacteria are everywhere so that isn’t the problem. Some bacteria can double their population in 20 minutes. Luck would have it that these tend to be the more poisonous kind. Nitrifying bacteria are relatively slow reproducers and it takes between 8 and 24 hours for them to double their population. If you start with dry rocks it can take a month or two to produce enough bacteria to support even a few small fish. Using bacteria in a bottle instantly provides a larger source of bacteria to speed up the front end of this process.

My cycle went fine for 3 weeks but now it stalled, what happened?

It could be any number of things. Did you let your ammonia go to high? Do you have a pH issue?

Your nitrifying bacteria may be being outcompeted for resources with other bacteria and/or algae. They may process ammonia fine at first but they will eventually go dormant. When this happens, your cycle will stall until a more marine friendly bacterium reproduces enough to begin the cycling process again. Bacteria in your tank are in constant competition for food. Eventually the one best suited to your specific system will thrive.


Can I vacuum out too much bacteria by cleaning? Will cleaning my sand bed cause my tank to cycle?

No, you cannot hurt your bacteria population by routine vacuuming or water changes. These bacteria are very difficult to remove from solid surfaces and would be difficult to remove even with scrubbing.

If your sand bed is very dirty you may cause an ammonia spike that is larger than your current bacteria population can handle but you haven’t done any harm to your bacteria population.

Can I use old tank water to cut back on my new tanks cycle time?

You can, but it won’t help much. The majority of the bacteria is going to be growing on hard surfaces, not floating in the water. There will be some, however, so you will likely introduce a strain of bacteria into your new tank that will eventually work very well.

I never measured any nitrite during my cycle, is this a problem?

No, odds are this is not a problem. It is possible that you had a larger initial population of Nitrobacter bacteria (nitrite eaters) compared to Nitrosomonas bacteria (ammonia eaters). In this case the nitrite was processed to nitrate almost as soon as it was produced.

Another possibility is that you have a large population of Nitrospira bacteria. These bacteria convert ammonia into nitrite and then to nitrate within the same cell structure so the nitrite is never released into the water to be measured.

My tank has been empty for 6 months, did my bacteria starve?

No. It is almost impossible to starve bacteria. They will adjust their metabolism and reproduction rates based on the food supply. As the amount of available food goes down, they will process it slower and reproduce less. If they go without food long enough they will go into a cystic stage (typically around a year without food). Once food is available again it will take longer for them to recover from this stage but they are still viable.

This does not mean that your tank is ready for fish after sitting dormant for up to a year. Bacteria is part of the food chain and is consumed by many different organisms. Just because your bacteria didn’t starve doesn’t mean it didn’t get eaten or is still viable. Every aquarium will respond differently based on its unique biology.

Why can I add more fish to an older aquarium faster than a new aquarium?

Let’s say you have 2 identical aquariums set up one year apart. They both have the exact same number and size of fish and both have 0 ppm ammonia and nitrite. They must have the same amount of bacteria, right? Well, no. The older tank will have a larger population of bacteria that is processing ammonia at a slower rate. The younger tank will have a smaller population of bacteria with faster metabolisms. If you add new fish to the younger tank you need to wait for the population to increase which can take days. In an older aquarium, the bacteria only need to become more active which can happen in a matter of hours.
fts11.jpg
Is there a way to measure bacteria?
 
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Is there a way to measure bacteria?
There is, but it isn't something possible for a hobbyist. That is why I think an ammonia consumption test has so much value. If you can do a controlled ammonia add to 2ppm (1ppm for larger tanks) and it can process the ammonia in 24 hours, your tank can easily handle a few small and lightly fed fish.
 

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There is, but it isn't something possible for a hobbyist. That is why I think an ammonia consumption test has so much value. If you can do a controlled ammonia add to 2ppm (1ppm for larger tanks) and it can process the ammonia in 24 hours, your tank can easily handle a few small and lightly fed fish.
Good to know!
 

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So, I have a question. My tank had gotten overrun by aptasia about 7 years ago. It seemed like the more I fought them the worse they got. My, made in China, dosing pump went crazy one day and pumped a liter of calcium into my 125 gallon tank. The sand bed turned into a solid chunk and I’m sure died. So adventually I gave up. I got rid of my fish, the couple of inverts that I had left and shut the tank off. The water dried up over the years and the tank just sat. Fast forward to 2020. I broke down the tank. Pulling out the live rock and pressure washing all of it. Cleaned out the tank and threw away the sand. After the washing, I put the rock in a 35 gallon Brute trash can and filled it with RODI water with a couple of pumps in with it. It sat for 6 months before I did anything with it. I didn’t do any water changes or anything with it. Just covered it and let it set.
Now I have the tank up and running. It’s been about 3 weeks and I have been dosing microbactor7. Everything seems to be doing well. So here’s my question... Before I took the rocks out of the Brute can I checked the salinity level of the water. My refractometer read
1.020. So could the rock have cycled while sitting in the water for those 6 months? Everything is testing out fine except for the phosphates. I’m sure the rocks are leaching some out. It’s something that I knew I would most likely have to deal with. I’m more curious about the curing and possibility of the rock already cycling. As it is now I have one small clown fish in the tank with about 75lbs of rock and a 3” deep sand/crushed coral bed. I have no ammonia showing at all. I have turned on my 4 bulb T5 light and watching for the algae to begin. So do you think the rock has cycled?
 
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So, I have a question. My tank had gotten overrun by aptasia about 7 years ago. It seemed like the more I fought them the worse they got. My, made in China, dosing pump went crazy one day and pumped a liter of calcium into my 125 gallon tank. The sand bed turned into a solid chunk and I’m sure died. So adventually I gave up. I got rid of my fish, the couple of inverts that I had left and shut the tank off. The water dried up over the years and the tank just sat. Fast forward to 2020. I broke down the tank. Pulling out the live rock and pressure washing all of it. Cleaned out the tank and threw away the sand. After the washing, I put the rock in a 35 gallon Brute trash can and filled it with RODI water with a couple of pumps in with it. It sat for 6 months before I did anything with it. I didn’t do any water changes or anything with it. Just covered it and let it set.
Now I have the tank up and running. It’s been about 3 weeks and I have been dosing microbactor7. Everything seems to be doing well. So here’s my question... Before I took the rocks out of the Brute can I checked the salinity level of the water. My refractometer read
1.020. So could the rock have cycled while sitting in the water for those 6 months? Everything is testing out fine except for the phosphates. I’m sure the rocks are leaching some out. It’s something that I knew I would most likely have to deal with. I’m more curious about the curing and possibility of the rock already cycling. As it is now I have one small clown fish in the tank with about 75lbs of rock and a 3” deep sand/crushed coral bed. I have no ammonia showing at all. I have turned on my 4 bulb T5 light and watching for the algae to begin. So do you think the rock has cycled?
I would suspect so. There were plenty of dried organics that would have broken down and provided a food source for the bacteria. The bacteria only need a limited amount of heat and do not need light. I wouldn't go crazy stocking the tank, but you should be fine slowly adding fish to it.
 

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So now here’s my next question.... What do you think about adding a very small amount of sand from the beach to the reef tank? This will be from the Pacific Ocean and being put into a tropical reef tank. Do you think that there will be any beneficial bacteria and will it survive in the warm water rather than the cold water?
 
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So now here’s my next question.... What do you think about adding a very small amount of sand from the beach to the reef tank? This will be from the Pacific Ocean and being put into a tropical reef tank. Do you think that there will be any beneficial bacteria and will it survive in the warm water rather than the cold water?
I don't think it is a very good idea, not to mention it could technically be against the law. I would be shocked if there were any benefit.
 

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So, I have a question. My tank had gotten overrun by aptasia about 7 years ago. It seemed like the more I fought them the worse they got. My, made in China, dosing pump went crazy one day and pumped a liter of calcium into my 125 gallon tank. The sand bed turned into a solid chunk and I’m sure died. So adventually I gave up. I got rid of my fish, the couple of inverts that I had left and shut the tank off. The water dried up over the years and the tank just sat. Fast forward to 2020. I broke down the tank. Pulling out the live rock and pressure washing all of it. Cleaned out the tank and threw away the sand. After the washing, I put the rock in a 35 gallon Brute trash can and filled it with RODI water with a couple of pumps in with it. It sat for 6 months before I did anything with it. I didn’t do any water changes or anything with it. Just covered it and let it set.
Now I have the tank up and running. It’s been about 3 weeks and I have been dosing microbactor7. Everything seems to be doing well. So here’s my question... Before I took the rocks out of the Brute can I checked the salinity level of the water. My refractometer read
1.020. So could the rock have cycled while sitting in the water for those 6 months? Everything is testing out fine except for the phosphates. I’m sure the rocks are leaching some out. It’s something that I knew I would most likely have to deal with. I’m more curious about the curing and possibility of the rock already cycling. As it is now I have one small clown fish in the tank with about 75lbs of rock and a 3” deep sand/crushed coral bed. I have no ammonia showing at all. I have turned on my 4 bulb T5 light and watching for the algae to begin. So do you think the rock has cycled?
I did the exact same thing...it’s going fine.
 

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No, they aren't necessary. Nothing wrong with adding a little ammonia to verify that the live rock is high quality (I don't think the sand does much). A fair amount of live rock should support a few small fish with no issues.
If you use fresh live sand from the Ocean, as I do, since I collect my own sand from the Outer Reefs off the Florida Keys, it helps a lot. If you use the store bought sand, it might help a little if it is still fresh , and not expired.
 

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Real quick question on my current status.

25 gallon, cycling with about 20 lbs of dry rock and 1 live (ocean) rock from LFS, 1 cup of sand from the LFS reef tank, and Fritz Turbostart.

In 24 hours, tank is processing 2ppm of ammonia down to 0.25ppm, but not 0. Nitrites however are still at 1.5ppm (down from 2ppm previous day). Should I go ahead and keep dosing ammonia daily when it's under 0.5ppm until BOTH ammonia and nitrite are at 0? Or just let it ride out and make sure ammonia continues to dissipate and wait for nitrites to hit 0?

Thanks!
 

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Real quick question on my current status.

25 gallon, cycling with about 20 lbs of dry rock and 1 live (ocean) rock from LFS, 1 cup of sand from the LFS reef tank, and Fritz Turbostart.

In 24 hours, tank is processing 2ppm of ammonia down to 0.25ppm, but not 0. Nitrites however are still at 1.5ppm (down from 2ppm previous day). Should I go ahead and keep dosing ammonia daily when it's under 0.5ppm until BOTH ammonia and nitrite are at 0? Or just let it ride out and make sure ammonia continues to dissipate and wait for nitrites to hit 0?

Thanks!
I think if your ammonia keeps on going down to 0.25ppm in 24 hours, then ammonia is being oxidized fine. There might just be some ammonia produced constantly by some die-off or something, that's probably why a lot of people always read a baseline amount of ammonia.

As for when to dose, different people have different opinions on this. I personally would dose ammonia again when ammonia and nitrite are both 0 (or well, 0.25 and 0 respectively). Nitrite generally is not harmful to marine fish and all that, but personally I still want to make sure it can be effectively handled. Why risk anything, especially since we do not know the long term repercussions of nitrite >0 on marine fish. Etc.

Why both ammonia and nitrite is at 0? Well, because apparently if nitrite gets too high, nitrification is inhibited, so that just slows things down. Am I worried the ammonia-oxidizers would die off without a daily dose of ammonia? Nope, they can survive ammonia starvation for quite a while.
 

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As for when to dose, different people have different opinions on this. I personally would dose ammonia again when ammonia and nitrite are both 0 (or well, 0.25 and 0 respectively).
Thanks, I'll give it another 24 hours and see what happens to ammonia & nitrite. If we're down to 0 I'll give it another dose of ammonia and see how fast it races to the bottom again.
 

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If starting my 120gal bare bottom with 3 separate sources total of 90lb live rock, 30lb dry rock and a Brightwell Brick soaked in Microbacter 7 in the sump; will this tank start a new cycle? If so how long before I can add my fish and corals?
Additionally I do have a bottle of Fritzyme turbostart 9000 to "insta-cycle" a tank...Should I use this and then check nitrites/nitrates/ammonia? Or just start adding livestock after Fritzyme?
I'm hoping to set up and add livestock within 24hrs of breaking down the 40B that everything is living in.
Is this possible with my setup described?
What would you suggest doing in this situation?

Thanks in advance.
 

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Hi all, got a fishless cycling question.

So I got a red sea 250 (65 total gal) installed on Monday. I used new dry Natures Ocean Aragonite Sand#1 50lbs(Washed), and about 30-40lbs of previously live rock, that had been dried and left in a garage for a couple months by the previous owner. Prior to setting up the system, I scrubbed this rock, and then soaked the rock in new salt water for 7 days, with power heads circulating. During setup, I used Dr Tims One and Only (8oz) and added appropriate drops of dr tims ammonia chloride, till it read 2.0ppm. I have the protein skimmer and lights turned off, and filter socks removed.

After waiting 24 hours I began testing all my parameters, using API test kits. Days 2-4 have showed identical results:

Ammonia: 2.0
Nitrite: 0.0
Nitrate: 0.0
Phosphate: 0.0
Salinity: 1.025
Temperature: 78-79
PH: 7.7-7.8 (using a Milwaukee pro digital meter)

Does anything look off? I figured my ammonia would have dropped some by now, so I could add more of the ammonia chloride. I'm just wondering if maybe I got some dead bacteria, and should buy some more to add? Maybe try the Microbacter7 over the dr. tims?

PS. I know API test kits suck, I've order some better kits, but they haven't come in yet.

Thanks!
 
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Azedenkae

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Hi all, got a fishless cycling question.

So I got a red sea 250 (65 total gal) installed on Monday. I used new dry Natures Ocean Aragonite Sand#1 50lbs(Washed), and about 30-40lbs of previously live rock, that had been dried and left in a garage. Prior to setting up the system, I scrubbed this rock, and then soaked the rock in new salt water for 7 days, with power heads circulating. During setup, I used Dr Tims One and Only (8oz) and added appropriate drops of dr tims ammonia chloride, till it read 2.0ppm. I have the protein skimmer and lights turned off, and filter socks removed.

After waiting 24 hours I began testing all my parameters, using API test kits. Days 2-4 have showed identical results:

Ammonia: 2.0
Nitrite: 0.0
Nitrate: 0.0
Phosphate: 0.0
Salinity: 1.025
Temperature: 78-79
PH: 7.7-7.8 (using a Milwaukee pro digital meter)

Does anything look off? I figured my ammonia would have dropped some by now, so I could add more of the ammonia chloride. I'm just wondering if maybe I got some dead bacteria, and should buy some more to add? Maybe try the Microbacter7 over the dr. tims?

PS. I know API test kits suck, I've order some better kits, but they haven't come in yet.

Thanks!
Yeah that is surprising, I would have thought there would have been some change by now. I just checked my own timeline, and yeah, within 4 days there was definite change. I used Microbacter7. Maybe it is a good idea then to swap over.

Re: API test kits, their issue is that they are not accurate, though they are precise. At least that is my experience, doing multiple repeated tests at once.
 

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