Daily Phosphate Swings; What am I missing?

[ReefHunter006]

My question has a couple different parts.

1. People quote a certain level of phosphates to maintain, examples such as .03ppm. Then I see people jump in threads and say they have high or low phosphates and quote a single number. Yet, I see my phosphates double or triple then reduce back to start the cycle all over again day to day. Are peoples phosphates really as stable as posts make them seem? I thought my fluctuations were normal based on the estimate that food can add .02 ppm to 1ppm(forgot the upper bound Randy typically says) in a single day. I want to know what I am missing here? If I am doing something wrong I would love an opportunity to fix it. I don’t have any algae problems at this time either.

2. As an average my tank utilizes about .1 to .2 phosphate a day. The lower the phosphate get the slower it is utilized, but I run the risk of bottoming out phosphates substantially when I aim to keep my low point at .03. So again what am I doing wrong regarding phosphate, but also how are people measuring phosphate? Are they sampling the up and down swings like I am? Or are people that come to forums and say they have a high phosphate of .15-.3ppm simply measuring at the height of the curve? Similarly, the people running at .03 ppm are they just cherry picking the time to show the data.

I assume the size of the system greatly impacts the stability of phosphate and larger systems likely have less of a swing. With that said though, it seems phosphate is much more a moving target then people seem to allude to based on my results below. I would love to hear a few more opinions and thoughts.

65 gallon reefer 250 - mixed reef

Let’s start with the range of the daily swing in phosphate for me as measured by the Hanna Phos UL checker.

9am: .055ppm to .1ppm
Feed rods food, size of thumb

12pm: .1ppm to .18ppm
auto feeder small pellets on lowest setting via Apex AFS

9pm: .08ppm to .12
1 cube of brine shrimp or similar frozen food.

rinse and repeat

I have a refugium with a little more than a fist size of cheato.

Daily Dose:

2 part - 23ml
Phytofeast alive - 2ml
Algaebarn phyto - 30 ml
Microbactor 7 - 5 ml
Cheatogro - .7 ml
Red Sea coral AB+ - 6ml each

 

[xxkenny90xx]

What all are you doing for filtration? I don't think those swings are normal and am guessing it is test error. Are you confident your using the Hanna correctly? Can you try another tester to confirm?

Most people that fight high Po4 will just have their numbers climb and climb until they add gfo or something, then it will keep going down until the gfo is removed or exhausted. I personally have never experienced the swings you are describing

 

[ReefHunter006]

Filtration is skimmer, refugium, and water changes.

I have been seeing those fluctuations well over a month of testing.


I am very careful regarding using the checker. I even go as far as to use hospital gloves when handling all cuvettes as well as micro fiber clothes. All powder is dispensed into the cuvettes carefully.

When the readings are large enough I will occasionally check them against a Red Sea test kit.

 

[schuby]

At most, I test phosphate once a day, right before my daily feeding at 7pm. I usually test on Saturday and Wednesday. I have no idea how my phosphate value changes within any one day.

I've been carbon-dosing with vodka for a few months now, as my large chaeto-ball can maintain but not lower my overall phosphate level. Typically, my phosphate changes by less than .02 ppm in a week, before carbon-dosing. I'm still ramping up my amount of vodka each week.

Reefkeeping Magazine - Vinegar Dosing Methodology for the Marine Aquarium

Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for the marine aquarist.

reefkeeping.com

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php (I'm following this one which uses vodka)

My target phosphate level is 0.1-0.2 ppm. My observation is that my SPS frags grow very little, if at all, when phosphate is above 0.3 ppm. My 150 gal tank is almost two years old and was started with dry rock.

I've found the Hanna HI774 checker to be consistent and reliable. After adding the entire contents of the packet, I shake if for two full minutes. Then, I put it back in the checker and hold the button until the 3-minute timer starts. I make sure all bubbles are off the inner sides of the vial and remove fingerprints before placing vial in checker (both times).

 

[KevinC]

My question has a couple different parts.

1. People quote a certain level of phosphates to maintain, examples such as .03ppm. Then I see people jump in threads and say they have high or low phosphates and quote a single number. Yet, I see my phosphates double or triple then reduce back to start the cycle all over again day to day. Are peoples phosphates really as stable as posts make them seem? I thought my fluctuations were normal based on the estimate that food can add .02 ppm to 1ppm(forgot the upper bound Randy typically says) in a single day. I want to know what I am missing here? If I am doing something wrong I would love an opportunity to fix it. I don’t have any algae problems at this time either.

2. As an average my tank utilizes about .1 to .2 phosphate a day. The lower the phosphate get the slower it is utilized, but I run the risk of bottoming out phosphates substantially when I aim to keep my low point at .03. So again what am I doing wrong regarding phosphate, but also how are people measuring phosphate? Are they sampling the up and down swings like I am? Or are people that come to forums and say they have a high phosphate of .15-.3ppm simply measuring at the height of the curve? Similarly, the people running at .03 ppm are they just cherry picking the time to show the data.

I assume the size of the system greatly impacts the stability of phosphate and larger systems likely have less of a swing. With that said though, it seems phosphate is much more a moving target then people seem to allude to based on my results below. I would love to hear a few more opinions and thoughts.

65 gallon reefer 250 - mixed reef

Let’s start with the range of the daily swing in phosphate for me as measured by the Hanna Phos UL checker.

9am: .055ppm to .1ppm
Feed rods food, size of thumb

12pm: .1ppm to .18ppm
auto feeder small pellets on lowest setting via Apex AFS

9pm: .08ppm to .12
1 cube of brine shrimp or similar frozen food.

rinse and repeat

I have a refugium with a little more than a fist size of cheato.

Daily Dose:

2 part - 23ml
Phytofeast alive - 2ml
Algaebarn phyto - 30 ml
Microbactor 7 - 5 ml
Cheatogro - .7 ml
Red Sea coral AB+ - 6ml each

whats your nitrate

 

[ReefHunter006]

At most, I test phosphate once a day, right before my daily feeding at 7pm. I usually test on Saturday and Wednesday. I have no idea how my phosphate value changes within any one day.

I've been carbon-dosing with vodka for a few months now, as my large chaeto-ball can maintain but not lower my overall phosphate level. Typically, my phosphate changes by less than .02 ppm in a week, before carbon-dosing. I'm still ramping up my amount of vodka each week.

Reefkeeping Magazine - Vinegar Dosing Methodology for the Marine Aquarium

Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for the marine aquarist.

reefkeeping.com

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php (I'm following this one which uses vodka)

My target phosphate level is 0.1-0.2 ppm. My observation is that my SPS frags grow very little, if at all, when phosphate is above 0.3 ppm. My 150 gal tank is almost two years old and was started with dry rock.

I've found the Hanna HI774 checker to be consistent and reliable. After adding the entire contents of the packet, I shake if for two full minutes. Then, I put it back in the checker and hold the button until the 3-minute timer starts. I make sure all bubbles are off the inner sides of the vial and remove fingerprints before placing vial in checker (both times).

Your method of using the checker is exactly what I do. I trust the checker is giving me accurate readings. And if I test everyday at the same time then my readings are very consistent and fluctuate very little. It’s the infra day ramp up and down that has be a bit confused.

 

[ReefHunter006]

whats your nitrate

8 to 12.5.
Last week using the Hanna nitrate checker:

 

[ReefHunter006]

What all are you doing for filtration? I don't think those swings are normal and am guessing it is test error. Are you confident your using the Hanna correctly? Can you try another tester to confirm?

Most people that fight high Po4 will just have their numbers climb and climb until they add gfo or something, then it will keep going down until the gfo is removed or exhausted. I personally have never experienced the swings you are describing

I would like to add here is the phosphate data set from just the last week if I only use 9am as testing time.

 

[ReefHunter006]

Here a pic of the tank as well to help show the lack of algae.

 

[ReefHunter006]

At most, I test phosphate once a day, right before my daily feeding at 7pm. I usually test on Saturday and Wednesday. I have no idea how my phosphate value changes within any one day.

I've been carbon-dosing with vodka for a few months now, as my large chaeto-ball can maintain but not lower my overall phosphate level. Typically, my phosphate changes by less than .02 ppm in a week, before carbon-dosing. I'm still ramping up my amount of vodka each week.

Reefkeeping Magazine - Vinegar Dosing Methodology for the Marine Aquarium

Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for the marine aquarist.

reefkeeping.com

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php (I'm following this one which uses vodka)

My target phosphate level is 0.1-0.2 ppm. My observation is that my SPS frags grow very little, if at all, when phosphate is above 0.3 ppm. My 150 gal tank is almost two years old and was started with dry rock.

I've found the Hanna HI774 checker to be consistent and reliable. After adding the entire contents of the packet, I shake if for two full minutes. Then, I put it back in the checker and hold the button until the 3-minute timer starts. I make sure all bubbles are off the inner sides of the vial and remove fingerprints before placing vial in checker (both times).

I was using NOPOX in the past, but stopped a bit ago. Had a cyano outbreak that I managed to get under control by stopping. May start again but currently water changes have been doing me well. Will deff revisit in the future. Thanks for supplying that link though!

 

[xxkenny90xx]

Filtration is skimmer, refugium, and water changes.

I have been seeing those fluctuations well over a month of testing.


I am very careful regarding using the checker. I even go as far as to use hospital gloves when handling all cuvettes as well as micro fiber clothes. All powder is dispensed into the cuvettes carefully.

When the readings are large enough I will occasionally check them against a Red Sea test kit.

Assuming your folding/creasing the packets and getting all of the powder out and cleaning the curvettes with distilled water only it sounds like you've got it right!

Is your question mainly out of curiosity or do you believe you have a problem that needs fixing?

 

[ReefHunter006]

Assuming your folding/creasing the packets and getting all of the powder out and cleaning the curvettes with distilled water only it sounds like you've got it right!

Is your question mainly out of curiosity or do you believe you have a problem that needs fixing?

Agreed, I am very careful to fold the packs and empty completely. I use Hanna checkers for alk, cal (Finickiest of them all), salinity, nitrate, and clean them with Hannas cleaning solution as well as with RODI water.

I don't think there is any particular problem in my tank, more of a curiosity as I have felt my tank differs in the fluctuation of phosphates compared to others based on peoples responses to other questions on the forums.

So I was curious if am I alone in noticing phosphate behaving this way?

Is this something I should continue to monitor?

Is there a reasonable way to handle this situation or stabilize phosphates, if this is in-fact a potential longer term issue?

The tank will be a year old next month, so I am not sure if the sand and rock could still be sequestering phosphate.

 

[xxkenny90xx]

Agreed, I am very careful to fold the packs and empty completely. I use Hanna checkers for alk, cal (Finickiest of them all), salinity, nitrate, and clean them with Hannas cleaning solution as well as with RODI water.

I don't think there is any particular problem in my tank, more of a curiosity as I have felt my tank differs in the fluctuation of phosphates compared to others based on peoples responses to other questions on the forums.

So I was curious if am I alone in noticing phosphate behaving this way?

Is this something I should continue to monitor?

Is there a reasonable way to handle this situation or stabilize phosphates, if this is in-fact a potential longer term issue?

The tank will be a year old next month, so I am not sure if the sand and rock could still be sequestering phosphate.

It does make sense that if you test right after feeding (before your tank has had a chance to process the food) you would get oddly high numbers but i'm not too sure, hopefully someone else can chime in and be more helpful

Fwiw rodi (even 0 tds) never touches my curvettes. Distilled only. I learned this while doing thorough research on how to properly use the Cal checker and just carried it over to the other checkers as well.

 

[ReefHunter006]

It does make sense that if you test right after feeding (before your tank has had a chance to process the food) you would get oddly high numbers but i'm not too sure, hopefully someone else can chime in and be more helpful

Fwiw rodi (even 0 tds) never touches my curvettes. Distilled only. I learned this while doing thorough research on how to properly use the Cal checker and just carried it over to the other checkers as well.

Agreed, I bought the special lab grade water straight from Hanna for that cause the calcium checker was such a pain in the butt early on.

 

[JayPnoy12]

My question has a couple different parts.

1. People quote a certain level of phosphates to maintain, examples such as .03ppm. Then I see people jump in threads and say they have high or low phosphates and quote a single number. Yet, I see my phosphates double or triple then reduce back to start the cycle all over again day to day. Are peoples phosphates really as stable as posts make them seem? I thought my fluctuations were normal based on the estimate that food can add .02 ppm to 1ppm(forgot the upper bound Randy typically says) in a single day. I want to know what I am missing here? If I am doing something wrong I would love an opportunity to fix it. I don’t have any algae problems at this time either.

2. As an average my tank utilizes about .1 to .2 phosphate a day. The lower the phosphate get the slower it is utilized, but I run the risk of bottoming out phosphates substantially when I aim to keep my low point at .03. So again what am I doing wrong regarding phosphate, but also how are people measuring phosphate? Are they sampling the up and down swings like I am? Or are people that come to forums and say they have a high phosphate of .15-.3ppm simply measuring at the height of the curve? Similarly, the people running at .03 ppm are they just cherry picking the time to show the data.

I assume the size of the system greatly impacts the stability of phosphate and larger systems likely have less of a swing. With that said though, it seems phosphate is much more a moving target then people seem to allude to based on my results below. I would love to hear a few more opinions and thoughts.

65 gallon reefer 250 - mixed reef

Let’s start with the range of the daily swing in phosphate for me as measured by the Hanna Phos UL checker.

9am: .055ppm to .1ppm
Feed rods food, size of thumb

12pm: .1ppm to .18ppm
auto feeder small pellets on lowest setting via Apex AFS

9pm: .08ppm to .12
1 cube of brine shrimp or similar frozen food.

rinse and repeat

I have a refugium with a little more than a fist size of cheato.

Daily Dose:

2 part - 23ml
Phytofeast alive - 2ml
Algaebarn phyto - 30 ml
Microbactor 7 - 5 ml
Cheatogro - .7 ml
Red Sea coral AB+ - 6ml each

Hi @ReefHunter006 I'm curious I know this is maybe a dump question, but when you do water change have to check test or check to see if you have any PO4 in the water? When is the last time you change your cartige for your RO/ID unit and what is the TDS that coming out of of the unit? The reason why I asked cause this is possible issue especially if you are using the RO to top off your tank. Again this is just a thought cause sometimes small little thing like RO/ID water that your using might be leaching back somewhere into you system.

Good luck and let me know if you find out. I like to know too for future reference.

Always,

Jay

 

[schuby]

I was using NOPOX in the past, but stopped a bit ago. Had a cyano outbreak that I managed to get under control by stopping. May start again but currently water changes have been doing me well. Will deff revisit in the future. Thanks for supplying that link though!

If you let/force phosphate or nitrate to zero, then bad things usually happen.

 

[ReefHunter006]

Hi @ReefHunter006 I'm curious I know this is maybe a dump question, but when you do water change have to check test or check to see if you have any PO4 in the water? When is the last time you change your cartige for your RO/ID unit and what is the TDS that coming out of of the unit? The reason why I asked cause this is possible issue especially if you are using the RO to top off your tank. Again this is just a thought cause sometimes small little thing like RO/ID water that your using might be leaching back somewhere into you system.

Good luck and let me know if you find out. I like to know too for future reference.

Always,

Jay

Hey Jay,

Thanks for taking some time to respond.

I changed the sediment filter and DI resign about 2 weeks ago. The carbon and alk block are about 9 months old along with all other blocks.

I make batches of RODI water at about 75 gallons at a time and store them. I test the water prior to mixing and when it is freshly made from my RODI unit. Results have been zero across the board. Incoming TDS is 38 ppm.

The topoff water is RODI as well, and no phosphates are present based on my test this evening. I just tested the tank and ATO res.

The tank is at .12ppm currently, and I expect tomorrow morning that it will be roughly .05-.07 based on the last month of test results.

Please let me know if I provide anything else.

Happy Holidays!

 

[ReefHunter006]

If you let/force phosphate or nitrate to zero, then bad things usually happen.

Totally agreed, which is why I am concerned about targeting such a low level of phosphates such as .03 given my phosphates are fluctuating on average .07-.1ppm a day. I am looking to avoid 0 for nitrate and phosphate at all costs.

 

[schuby]

To me, targeting 0.03 ppm phosphate is the same as targeting zero: our hobby test kits aren't that accurate. If your weird and hate SPS, then constantly flirting with near-zero phosphate will kill them pretty quick. I want my SPS frags to grow so I never want phosphate lower than 0.1 ppm.

 

[ReefHunter006]

To me, targeting 0.03 ppm phosphate is the same as targeting zero: our hobby test kits aren't that accurate. If your weird and hate SPS, then constantly flirting with near-zero phosphate will kill them pretty quick. I want my SPS frags to grow so I never want phosphate lower than 0.1 ppm.

I agree, I am not attempting to lower my phosphates. I am trying to understand the range they take through out a 24 hour period. I don’t keep or intend to lower my phosphates to .03ppm