Deciding on controller: What do you hate most about Apex, GHL, and HYDROS?

[n2585722]

The EB832 is not reliable. I’m surprised others haven’t mentioned that.

It is probably bad caps in the switch mode supplies. This is a common failure for a lot of consumer electronics. The higher frequencies of that type of supply are hard on the caps. We only use 105 degree caps as replacements. A few years back someone stole the recipe for the electrolyte from Panasonic. The only thing is it was missing a key ingredient that the person that stole it was unaware of. They went to another cap manufacturer with and and millions of caps were made with it. The problem was that the issue didn't show up for several years. Eventually they failed. The problem was they were in all kinds of and lots of brands of equipment. I doubt that that is the issue here since that was a long time ago.

 

[n2585722]

That ‘manual’ is missing a mountain of information though (although it does look likes it’s getting a bit better).

It might just be me, but any control device that requires a cloud to setup and alter is not my sort of thing. I would much prefer if I could change it locally.

I’m not suggesting it would happen, but what if Hydros went bankrupt and they shut down the cloud? My Hydros system would immediately become unusable.

Most of the IOT devices are already like that. I had two smart plugs I purchased from Home Depot to control some lights on some ornaments for my wife. They quit working. I found out the company went out of business. Now they are controlled by my Hydros using one of the WiFi strips. Hydros is by CoralVue. The reason for an online manual only is since it is new changes are made to the firmware more often than it would if it was an older system. By the time you got a unit the paper manual would most likely be outdated if it was packaged with the unit. This way they can make the changes to the manual as things change. Is there something in particular that you are looking for that is not in the manual. I may be able to help. I have 8 controllers all in a collective. So I have some experience using the units. The only one I do not have is the wave engine. I have MP10's and a Reeflink so I have not been in a hurry to get one.

 

[FishyFishFish]

You very kindly answered one of my latest questions on the Hydros thread about a function of the app that I wasn’t sure was included or not. Before posting that question I looked on the Hydros website and on their forum, and googled it (and found some very useful ‘how to’ videos, none of which were from Hydros themselves).

Coralvue stomped on me when I asked for a manual saying that they were ‘bringing Aquarium controllers into the 21st century’ (which, incidentally, began 20 years ago ). I wasn’t asking for a paper copy; I was asking for instructions on how the thing worked! A wiki type website would have been fine - I am used to dealing with high-tech systems that are much more complicated than an aquarium controller and none of them leave you just to figure things out for yourself.

The Hydros forum has important ‘stickies’ that aren’t on their website (e.g. the port specifications) and they expect their customers to go hunting around for the information that they need - that isn’t 21st century [sic] in my book.

If their method of passing information was working so well, then why is there a whole forum and a 32 page thread here with people asking basic questions on how it works?

As an aside, while I’m on my rant, I think that they are disingenuous with their marketing. For example, one brief snippet of their videos was highlighting how good it was that their Ph probe had galvanic isolation, as if they invented it!

If they were honest and just marketed it as a cost-effective controller and didn’t claim any invention of ground-breaking tech, I would be more inclined to go with them. My perception isn’t that they aren’t deliberately trying to mislead people; I think that they genuinely think that their tech is better than it actually is.

 

[n2585722]

You very kindly answered one of my latest questions on the Hydros thread about a function of the app that I wasn’t sure was included or not. Before posting that question I looked on the Hydros website and on their forum, and googled it (and found some very useful ‘how to’ videos, none of which were from Hydros themselves).

Coralvue stomped on me when I asked for a manual saying that they were ‘bringing Aquarium controllers into the 21st century’ (which, incidentally, began 20 years ago ). I wasn’t asking for a paper copy; I was asking for instructions on how the thing worked! A wiki type website would have been fine - I am used to dealing with high-tech systems that are much more complicated than an aquarium controller and none of them leave you just to figure things out for yourself.

The Hydros forum has important ‘stickies’ that aren’t on their website (e.g. the port specifications) and they expect their customers to go hunting around for the information that they need - that isn’t 21st century [sic] in my book.

If their method of passing information was working so well, then why is there a whole forum and a 32 page thread here with people asking basic questions on how it works?

As an aside, while I’m on my rant, I think that they are disingenuous with their marketing. For example, one brief snippet of their videos was highlighting how good it was that their Ph probe had galvanic isolation, as if they invented it!

If they were honest and just marketed it as a cost-effective controller and didn’t claim any invention of ground-breaking tech, I would be more inclined to go with them. My perception isn’t that they aren’t deliberately trying to mislead people; I think that they genuinely think that their tech is better than it actually is.

As far as the probe ports it is not the galvanic isolation. It is at the isolation point the signal sent is already digital. Most of the others is still an analog singnal at that point. That requires a micro controller on the isolated side. That also takes more room on a circuit board. That is the reason the small controller with a probe port only has the one port. As far as the communications I have had with CoralVue they have always been able to help with any questions I have had. One of the reasons I initially went with Hydros is I talked with Don and Carlos at MACNA in Florida. They were able to answer the questions I had. There was another controller that was new about that time. When I went by their booth they were not very helpful at all. It was like they had no idea what I was talking about when I was trying to get information about specific things I had questions about. I know on the workshops they are always telling people to go to the forum and the facebook group. There is always someone there ready to help If you have questions.

 

[burningmime]

i have gone one more step. If there is a leak at the stand I want the controller to turn off the pump and not wait on me. I have it setup to send an alert if that condition occurs. The return type output on the Hydros has a input for a leak detector. You just set it to the leak detector you want to use to turn off the return pump and it will turn the pump off if there is a leak. In fact that same leak detector will turn off my skimmer and the pump on the calcium reactor. The only pumps that continue to run is the in tank flow pumps.

Even that part is doable much cheaper:

 

[burningmime]

It is probably bad caps in the switch mode supplies. This is a common failure for a lot of consumer electronics. The higher frequencies of that type of supply are hard on the caps. We only use 105 degree caps as replacements. A few years back someone stole the recipe for the electrolyte from Panasonic. The only thing is it was missing a key ingredient that the person that stole it was unaware of. They went to another cap manufacturer with and and millions of caps were made with it. The problem was that the issue didn't show up for several years. Eventually they failed. The problem was they were in all kinds of and lots of brands of equipment. I doubt that that is the issue here since that was a long time ago.

Wait, really? That's some serious cyberpunk drama. Is there an article on it?

 

[Delloman]

From everything I have read ecotech was the one that pulled the plug not neptune neptune has actually created an open standard for Reef IoT I also see problems with there pumps and powerheads so plan to use a reef octo as my return and tunze for Power heads contoled by apex. Did I not read that GHl has a monthly service cost?

 

[n2585722]

Wait, really? That's some serious cyberpunk drama. Is there an article on it?

Capacitor plague - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[n2585722]

Even that part is doable much cheaper:

I have 6 pumps and three solenoids that are powered off by three different leak detectors. Some pumps are shut off by any of them and others by just one or more. Not sure you could do that with those. The solenoids and three of the pumps are in the garage and the others are at the tank 35ft from the others. The solenoids and three of the pumps are powered by 12v outputs.

 

[Stain]

I own an el, trident and dos. I dislike the size/shape/color of the control module, Its freaking huge for what it is, and doesn't even have a little lcd readout. The price is also very high for the quality and components you get. Basic temp/ph monitoring and the 'control', with a powerbrick that performs/looks much worse than the previous gen. The Dos has alot of empty space inside, and feels/looks cheap, but works flawlessly. I love everything about the trident (except color scheme, but thats a neptune problem).

I have not used hydros or ghl, but I did skip on the hydros when I bought my el because of the app/customer support I read about. I also do not like the look of the app. I also don't like the multiple 'brains' as it reminds me of a 'MOST' system in a car. Almost like a can-bus, but worse to diagnose. I get the 'single' point of failure with the 'brain' in the apex, but its always the eb832 that seems to fail before anything else.

GHL I would get on board with if it was easier to get in Canada, there are only a few retailers, none of which are close to me. I can get anything for my apex at my lfs, which is a big plus for me.

I'm happy with my apex system, it does what it is supposed to do. I just hate looking at it hahaha, going to hide everything when I upgrade my system soon.

 

[ctopherl]

The Hydros came out the end of October last year. I got my first one around November 15. I still have it and it is working great. I have added 7 more controllers to it and have them in a collective. That means they share their inputs and outputs. It basically act a one larger controller. I was using an Archon. I almost everything transferred to the Hydros now. The only thing left is the lighting. I will need to get some 0%10v to PWM converters to use the Hydros. The Archon had PWM outputs. I have not been in any hurry to transfer that. So far I have been able to do everything I was doing on my Archon with the Hydros. I have no complaints. The app now has pages for status. You can choose what is displayed on each page. With larger systems it makes it easier if you have related items on their own page. That way you can separate inputs and outputs for things like ATO, AWC and dosing as examples. Hope this helps. I don't think it has been out long enough to get anything on reliability. All 8 of my controllers have had no issues. The controllers are IP65 rated so accidental splashes should not be an issue. I would not dunk one though.

Does the hydros notify you if there are failures in any way? E.g. I am on vacation and the power strip fails, so now my pumps and heater turn off (example). Or GFCI trips. Or who knows what. Can I get an urgent notification about this?

Similar to the “heartbeat sensor” feature on Apex.

 

[n2585722]

Does the hydros notify you if there are failures in any way? E.g. I am on vacation and the power strip fails, so now my pumps and heater turn off (example). Or GFCI trips. Or who knows what. Can I get an urgent notification about this?

Similar to the “heartbeat sensor” feature on Apex.

Yes, it does have push notifications on any device that has the app installed and also it will send emails. It is done via the cloud so if the control units do not check in you will also get an alert for that. I have a lot of internet issues so it is not uncommon for me to get that alert. Below is a screenshot of some of the alerts. Most of those were because of a internet outage. The last one was because I left the dispense pump on too long in one of the storage tanks. You get one for when the condition occurs and another when it clears. If for some reason the conditon were to remain the alert will repeat. I have mine setup to repeat every 30 minutes. Which type of alert is sent is determined by the alert level and how you have that level setup. The second screenshot is a output setup. This is my ATO. It has alerts set to orange level. The settings that send an alert here are max on time and max off time. So if my ATO stays on too long or off too long I will get an alert. I also have it set not to run past max on time. It will turn off the pump if it takes that long to fill. It will stay off until the condition is cleared. The last screenshot is a input setup. Here the alert is set by setting a safe range. As long as the temp in this case is in the safe range no alert is sent. If it goes out of that range then a alert is sent. If the input was a water level sensor you can set those to none, wet or dry for the alert. Leak detectors alert when wet.

 

[ctopherl]

Yes, it does have push notifications on any device that has the app installed and also it will send emails. It is done via the cloud so if the control units do not check in you will also get an alert for that. I have a lot of internet issues so it is not uncommon for me to get that alert. Below is a screenshot of some of the alerts. Most of those were because of a internet outage. The last one was because I left the dispense pump on too long in one of the storage tanks. You get one for when the condition occurs and another when it clears. If for some reason the conditon were to remain the alert will repeat. I have mine setup to repeat every 30 minutes. Which type of alert is sent is determined by the alert level and how you have that level setup. The second screenshot is a output setup. This is my ATO. It has alerts set to orange level. The settings that send an alert here are max on time and max off time. So if my ATO stays on too long or off too long I will get an alert. I also have it set not to run past max on time. It will turn off the pump if it takes that long to fill. It will stay off until the condition is cleared. The last screenshot is a input setup. Here the alert is set by setting a safe range. As long as the temp in this case is in the safe range no alert is sent. If it goes out of that range then a alert is sent. If the input was a water level sensor you can set those to none, wet or dry for the alert. Leak detectors alert when wet.

Thanks for the detailed response! The “has been offline too long” is exactly what I was looking for. I get the sensor inputs tied to alerts, I was afraid the devices could go offline and not send alerts they should be sending!

 

[ScottB]

Sounds like you are thinking how I do.

Most of the Apex complaints I hear are about the ATK, DOS, AFS but I don't use any of those. I use an Osmolator, Kamore Doser, and Lifegard feeder. I also plug most of my pumps into the apex for feed mode but I keep a single battery backed up power head on a different circuit. This way even if the apex turns everything off my tank can survive for days. Heater has its own controller, Ozone dial set to run constantly without overdosing.

I don't want all of this equipment plugged into any controller for the sake of playing with it. I just want the controller to stop my dosing pump if it overdoses, turn off a failing heater, and notify me if something is wrong. Buy good hardware from a hardware company and get good software from Neptune.

I really like Neptune software. I am no programmer just a fish guy, but I can tell you that my apex is easier to program than my Samsung smart home. Samsung is huge and I am sure they spent far more in R and D than Neptune did so I am very impressed with how easy and flexible APEX fusion is. It is so much more reliable and seamless than any other control app I have used in the aquarium industry.

Thank you @Montiman for saving me the effort of summarizing the value of APEX. I only wish they invested more (and charged more) for some of the hardware. The software is best of breed IMO,

 

[ScottB]

I hear you. I am just ranting because it's a bit ridiculous. These idiots try to screw each other and just turn people off to the hobby.

The craft-brewing industry learned this lesson decades ago, almost from the beginning of the movement... God knows what would have happened with craft beer if they didn't...

As brief history, small breweries tried to compete with and screw each other at first... It just screwed themselves... It did not help anyone...

Then, a change occurred, the small breweries started brew festivals and started concentrating on just trying to grow the number of consumers. They openly helped each other. Master brewers are open about recipes and techniques and openly tell others all of their "secrets." They tried to get wine drinkers not to stop drinking wine--but try craft beer too. To this day, while customers may have favorites--they openly buy all brands and their really is no such thing a brand loyalty when it comes to craft beer--customer just buy whatever is good. (the opposite model of the macro beer industry by the way...)

The cooperation and open support for each other worked amazing... A rising tide raised all ships, so to speak... Numbers/Percentage of craft beer drinkers has steadily risen for decades and while some breweries do well and others fail--there has been amazing success. and most anyone working in industry finds it very enjoyable. No "wars" with companies....

The percentage of Macro beer drinker numbers versus craft beer drinkers have decreased under the opposite--compete with each other at all costs-- model, by the way..

Anyway these Apex and vortech and any other company limiting access to their products just for the sake of it should take a lesson and try to grow the numbers of hobbyists, share technology and secrets, and just make the better mouse trap, instead doing everything to effectuate the opposite...

In sum, thanks--I do think this conversation helped me... A lot. I was unaware of all the BS. Now that i understand, I am not buying a controller. I can do the same with wifi plugs and such. Maybe in the future i'll buy a Hydros, when they have a little better product, simply because they have taken consumer stance i speak about above of an open--grow the hobby as whole--format...

You might find it less frustrating if you focus more on the Monitor/Alert functionality VS Controlling.
80% of my use case is to Monitor and Alert me when a given parameter is out of range.
20% is Control specific if/then situations like:
a) If water on the floor, shut returns off, shut skimmer off, chirp my phone.
b) If temp is high, override heaters, run fans, chirp phone.

I have smart plugs as well, but they cannot monitor or control anything besides time and volts.

And yeah, APEX hardware is cheaply made. I've had to replace an energy bar, a DOS and a leak detector over the last 6-7 years. But APEX has saved my livestock on repeated occasions and I have expensive taste in livestock.

 

[i_am_mclovin]

Slight bump here but as I'm getting ready to buy stuff and this thread has been a great discussion. Back when I ran my coral business I was HEAVY into the apex world. However, after my 3rd EB832 failed, I decided I'd had enough. Apex software and programmability is great. And while there are other smaller quirks with various apex devices (had to recalibrate DOS every 2 months for example) it was nothing that was a deal killer. But their EB832's are garbage in my experience. I had each one fail after warranty and it was a cost of about $75-$100 to "repair" each one. And of course being down an entire EB is not a fun thing either.

I switched to GHL and never had those kinds of reliability issues. GHL has its own quirks for sure, but the reliability was clearly superior. I also really like that some of the greatest GHL accessories can be standalone like ION director, dosing pumps, etc. That said, they are certainly expensive, and there is a learning curve to the programming.

This time around I am seriously considering Hydros. The modularity and "multi brain" setup is very interesting to me, and given that I don't like putting all my eggs in one basket, I can still use a standalone ATO like osmolater, while using hydros sensors to monitor for ATO failures, or using an ION director for testing, etc. I lose some convenience of having all of those things in a single app on my phone, but realistically while I'm out, like on vacation, the key items I need will be there.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

You might find it less frustrating if you focus more on the Monitor/Alert functionality VS Controlling.
80% of my use case is to Monitor and Alert me when a given parameter is out of range.
20% is Control specific if/then situations like:
a) If water on the floor, shut returns off, shut skimmer off, chirp my phone.
b) If temp is high, override heaters, run fans, chirp phone.

I have smart plugs as well, but they cannot monitor or control anything besides time and volts.

And yeah, APEX hardware is cheaply made. I've had to replace an energy bar, a DOS and a leak detector over the last 6-7 years. But APEX has saved my livestock on repeated occasions and I have expensive taste in livestock.

Slight bump here but as I'm getting ready to buy stuff and this thread has been a great discussion. Back when I ran my coral business I was HEAVY into the apex world. However, after my 3rd EB832 failed, I decided I'd had enough. Apex software and programmability is great. And while there are other smaller quirks with various apex devices (had to recalibrate DOS every 2 months for example) it was nothing that was a deal killer. But their EB832's are garbage in my experience. I had each one fail after warranty and it was a cost of about $75-$100 to "repair" each one. And of course being down an entire EB is not a fun thing either.

I switched to GHL and never had those kinds of reliability issues. GHL has its own quirks for sure, but the reliability was clearly superior. I also really like that some of the greatest GHL accessories can be standalone like ION director, dosing pumps, etc. That said, they are certainly expensive, and there is a learning curve to the programming.

This time around I am seriously considering Hydros. The modularity and "multi brain" setup is very interesting to me, and given that I don't like putting all my eggs in one basket, I can still use a standalone ATO like osmolater, while using hydros sensors to monitor for ATO failures, or using an ION director for testing, etc. I lose some convenience of having all of those things in a single app on my phone, but realistically while I'm out, like on vacation, the key items I need will be there.

I ended up with GHL. Definitely not in love with it. But no hardware has failed. Setup is time consuming beyond sanity and i am still calibrating the kh director, but test results are consistent enough for me. You MUST watch videos over and over again to initially setup. Then it's not bad to adjust. Write down settings as months later--you will not remember and it is the opposite of intuitive.

Definitely more focused on the monitor aspect than the control aspect, you are totally right. No way i would trust the KH director to control ALK. Just monitor. My mp 40's are not connected to it at all, nor monitored by it.

Mostly, i kinda hate the app. It might connect 50 % of the time, randomly, sometimes quickly, most times SLOW, and other times never at all. The graphs are basically useless with no numbers on the x or y axis.

All and all, the hardware is the purchase, so as long as it holds up--i'll deal with the rest of it, but won't blow smoke up any one's butt---there is room for a better monitor/controller in this market for sure.

Neptune, after the Sky rollout and bs marketing there, i am just totally turned off by and won't buy for that reason on top of the repeatedly stated cheap quality.

Hydros may be a solution, and its parts are cheap enough that i agree it could be a contender. The wireless power brick is ultimately why i did not go that way. I trust wifi and bluetooth not at all. Honestly, i wish GHL computer was hardwired to the internet. Apex at least has that feature.

 

[DavidRZ]

I'm currently going down this rabbit whole as well. It seems that all of these units will meet my needs, on the surface and with a few tweaks here and there.

My concern is around the units going offline. In reading the FB groups you would think this happens regularly. Does any of these companies report on such instances? Meaning can I see that a network has what percentage of "up" time versus "down" time (if that makes sense)?

My second concern is around reliability and accuracy of testing. I'd like to get something that would check Alk (at a minimum) several times a day. Again, FB users report wildly inaccurate or breaking units. I want this controller to make my life easier, not an extra task of fixing/calibrating/rebuilding the unit.

 

[DavidRZ]

I ended up with GHL. Definitely not in love with it. But no hardware has failed. Setup is time consuming beyond sanity and i am still calibrating the kh director, but test results are consistent enough for me. You MUST watch videos over and over again to initially setup. Then it's not bad to adjust. Write down settings as months later--you will not remember and it is the opposite of intuitive.

Definitely more focused on the monitor aspect than the control aspect, you are totally right. No way i would trust the KH director to control ALK. Just monitor. My mp 40's are not connected to it at all, nor monitored by it.

Mostly, i kinda hate the app. It might connect 50 % of the time, randomly, sometimes quickly, most times SLOW, and other times never at all. The graphs are basically useless with no numbers on the x or y axis.

All and all, the hardware is the purchase, so as long as it holds up--i'll deal with the rest of it, but won't blow smoke up any one's butt---there is room for a better monitor/controller in this market for sure.

Neptune, after the Sky rollout and bs marketing there, i am just totally turned off by and won't buy for that reason on top of the repeatedly stated cheap quality.

Hydros may be a solution, and its parts are cheap enough that i agree it could be a contender. The wireless power brick is ultimately why i did not go that way. I trust wifi and bluetooth not at all. Honestly, i wish GHL computer was hardwired to the internet. Apex at least has that feature.

This is quite helpful for sure. I'd heard some others express concerns about the software side of GHL, seems that is your experience as well.

I'm curious why you say you wouldn't trust the KH director? It seems this is one of the most invaluable pieces that GHL makes.

 

[ScottB]

I ended up with GHL. Definitely not in love with it. But no hardware has failed. Setup is time consuming beyond sanity and i am still calibrating the kh director, but test results are consistent enough for me. You MUST watch videos over and over again to initially setup. Then it's not bad to adjust. Write down settings as months later--you will not remember and it is the opposite of intuitive.

Definitely more focused on the monitor aspect than the control aspect, you are totally right. No way i would trust the KH director to control ALK. Just monitor. My mp 40's are not connected to it at all, nor monitored by it.

Mostly, i kinda hate the app. It might connect 50 % of the time, randomly, sometimes quickly, most times SLOW, and other times never at all. The graphs are basically useless with no numbers on the x or y axis.

All and all, the hardware is the purchase, so as long as it holds up--i'll deal with the rest of it, but won't blow smoke up any one's butt---there is room for a better monitor/controller in this market for sure.

Neptune, after the Sky rollout and bs marketing there, i am just totally turned off by and won't buy for that reason on top of the repeatedly stated cheap quality.

Hydros may be a solution, and its parts are cheap enough that i agree it could be a contender. The wireless power brick is ultimately why i did not go that way. I trust wifi and bluetooth not at all. Honestly, i wish GHL computer was hardwired to the internet. Apex at least has that feature.

Sounds like a familiar appraisal. GHL wins on hardware, APEX for software.

Literally, I have a spare EB, a spare DOS, a spare COR 20, a spare LDK. I should probably keep a spare brain around as well, but neither of those have ever failed. Fingers crossed.