Desjardini keeps getting worse.

[Kooma]

No problem! With his condition worsening I am just looking for next steps at this point and understand people get busy.

The more input on an issue, I feel the better odds there are.

I don’t have neo on hand unfortunately but have him in a kana bath at normal strength. 30 minutes in there and back into the QT, I’ll see how he is in the morning and update.

I agree, it seems bacterial, possibly fungal, and my butterfly with him is completely unaffected.

External Fungal infections are very rare in marine fish - they have a grayer look to them.

Kanamycin works on some bacteria, but without doing sensitivity studies, there is no real way to tell what antibiotic will work. There is a risk of treatment jumping - trying one antibiotic, and if it doesn’t work in a few days, jumping to another one, etc. I think you gave kanamycin enough time to work though. There are people who advocate using multiple antibiotics at one time - but that is risky due to drug interactions.

Makes sense. What should my second option be? I’ll get some on order.

I’ve been giving him a daily 30 minute bath in a QT bucket with double dose of kanaplex, his sores looked better yesterday, I’ll see how he is today. As that’s all I have at the moment, I’m working with what I’ve got.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Makes sense. What should my second option be? I’ll get some on order.

I’ve been giving him a daily 30 minute bath in a QT bucket with double dose of kanaplex, his sores looked better yesterday, I’ll see how he is today. As that’s all I have at the moment, I’m working with what I’ve got.

Oh - I thought you were dosing antibiotics as a static 24 hour bath, not as a dip.

Treatment levels for short term antibiotic dips are all just a guess - add to that having to guess what ABX to use, and it just adds in too many variables (dose, time and ABX to use).

I use at least an hour, and more often 3 hours as an ABX dip time. I typically double the dose, but with some, I’ll triple it. Of course, with longer dips you need temperature control and aeration.

I’ve had pretty good success with Neomycin/Neoplex.

 

[Kooma]

Makes sense. What should my second option be? I’ll get some on order.

I’ve been giving him a daily 30 minute bath in a QT bucket with double dose of kanaplex, his sores looked better yesterday, I’ll see how he is today. As that’s all I have at the moment, I’m working with what I’ve got.

Oh - I thought you were dosing antibiotics as a static 24 hour bath, not as a dip.

Treatment levels for short term antibiotic dips are all just a guess - add to that having to guess what ABX to use, and it just adds in too many variables (dose, time and ABX to use).

I use at least an hour, and more often 3 hours as an ABX dip time. I typically double the dose, but with some, I’ll triple it. Of course, with longer dips you need temperature control and aeration.

I’ve had pretty good success with Neomycin/Neoplex.

Doesn’t seem to be available in Canada. Any other suggestions?

 

[Hawaiian AQ]

These guys will ship you

American Aquarium and Pond Products

American Aquarium of Oregon. Home for Researched Information. Newest technology aquarium, pond products. Founded in 1978, CA. From aquarium keeping guru Carl Strohmeyer. Forwarded by Devon Trigg

www.americanaquariumproducts.com

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Doesn’t seem to be available in Canada. Any other suggestions?

Another broad spectrum, gram negative antibiotic could be tried. Some like the tetracyclines don’t work well in seawater though. Do you have any true antibiotics available to you?

 

[Kooma]

I’m no expert so honestly I have no idea.

Hoping someone here can lead me in the right direction.

 

[Hawaiian AQ]

Yeah, nitro. I gave you the link.

 

[Hawaiian AQ]

Also a lot of these medications are not very stable or effective in the buffered seawater we use. With that in mind professionals will administer them via injection or orally through food. If the fish is still feeding that’s a great way to administer meds. Even a lot of these OVTC stuff like seachem can be done this way especially in conjunction with dips that are concentrated (like jay was saying) I think they offer a product called Focus for this reason. If you make a medicated gel based food or Masstick it’s very effective

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Also a lot of these medications are not very stable or effective in the buffered seawater we use. With that in mind professionals will administer them via injection or orally through food. If the fish is still feeding that’s a great way to administer meds. Even a lot of these OVTC stuff like seachem can be done this way especially in conjunction with dips that are concentrated (like jay was saying) I think they offer a product called Focus for this reason. If you make a medicated gel based food or Masstick it’s very effective

We are trying to steer people away from the “mix medication with Focus” advice. The dose isn’t controlled when people do that. In some cases, like with kanamycin, if the dose is too high, it takes their kidney out. In other cases, like with metronidazole, it is so bitter that in high normal doses, the fish will simply stop eating it. And then, low doses simply don’t work.

I did a write up on the proper dosing of medicated foods, but it is not for the faint of heart:

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods Jay Hemdal c. 2020 Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Hawaiian AQ]

We are trying to steer people away from the “mix medication with Focus” advice. The dose isn’t controlled when people do that. In some cases, like with kanamycin, if the dose is too high, it takes their kidney out. In other cases, like with metronidazole, it is so bitter that in high normal doses, the fish will simply stop eating it. And then, low doses simply don’t work.

I did a write up on the proper dosing of medicated foods, but it is not for the faint of heart:

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods Jay Hemdal c. 2020 Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export...

www.reef2reef.com

Great write up, I agree with most all of it and think it’s sound advice. I’m not promoting Focus or any seachem product just so we are clear…that wasn’t my central point. We don’t use hobby grade stuff on the industry side typically. Really I’m just mentioning it as a potential option for a hobbyist looking for some sort of fix. Seems like your article is in confluence with my professional experience in that injections, and oral are effective delivery systems. I too use gels but I find Masstick as a great thing to try with really good results. Renal issues can be a challenge when we treat these fish with really unsophisticated controls. Again, nice write up and I will copy it for reference in the future

 

[Kooma]

Quick update, I have been giving him nightly baths in kanaplex for about 3 hours in a 5 gallon QT pail with fresh water every 2-3 days. He has really turned around.

 

[Kooma]

Wanted to get on here to update on the tang.

I was keeping a 5 gallon pail heated with a 50 watt heater, and temp monitor with alarm, and an air stone in the bucket. I would dose the Kanaplex at 5 gallon dose (one scoop) and I would net the fish from the QT and place him in the bucket for 4-5 hours each evening (Net at 4pm, leave in bucket until around 8pm).

I did this daily for about 10 days, and every 3rd day I would replace the water in the bucket with pre-heated and mixed saltwater matching the QT. I dosed the kanaplex daily.

He started making improvements after the 3rd day and was completely healed by day 8-9.

He has been in my main system with his tank mates from QT for over a month now with no issues doing great and getting fat.

This method really only worked as he was missing an eye and netting was incredibly easy. He wanted to look at me and I could bring the net behind him and scoop him first try every time. This reduced my kanaplex use dramatically as well. I was originally dosing the QT which is 60 gallons and going through Kanaplex far too quickly. In the future I’ll likely move fish needing kana to a 10 or 15 gallon for the full treatment and keep the same method or water replacement and dosing frequency.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Wanted to get on here to update on the tang.

I was keeping a 5 gallon pail heated with a 50 watt heater, and temp monitor with alarm, and an air stone in the bucket. I would dose the Kanaplex at 5 gallon dose (one scoop) and I would net the fish from the QT and place him in the bucket for 4-5 hours each evening (Net at 4pm, leave in bucket until around 8pm).

I did this daily for about 10 days, and every 3rd day I would replace the water in the bucket with pre-heated and mixed saltwater matching the QT. I dosed the kanaplex daily.

He started making improvements after the 3rd day and was completely healed by day 8-9.

He has been in my main system with his tank mates from QT for over a month now with no issues doing great and getting fat.

This method really only worked as he was missing an eye and netting was incredibly easy. He wanted to look at me and I could bring the net behind him and scoop him first try every time. This reduced my kanaplex use dramatically as well. I was originally dosing the QT which is 60 gallons and going through Kanaplex far too quickly. In the future I’ll likely move fish needing kana to a 10 or 15 gallon for the full treatment and keep the same method or water replacement and dosing frequency.

Just checking - you dosed the kanaplex a full five gallon redose for three days, then changed the water out?

That sort of lines up with my general advice is that if a proper 24 hour bath antibiotic treatments simply can’t be done, and the bath needs to be of shorter duration, double or triple the ABX dose. The only worry I’d have is that kanaplex can be toxic to fish kidneys at too high a dose.

 

[Kooma]

Just checking - you dosed the kanaplex a full five gallon redose for three days, then changed the water out?

That sort of lines up with my general advice is that if a proper 24 hour bath antibiotic treatments simply can’t be done, and the bath needs to be of shorter duration, double or triple the ABX dose. The only worry I’d have is that kanaplex can be toxic to fish kidneys at too high a dose.

I should have been more specific. I dosed prior to the bath on day one and two, on the third day I swapped water with fresh heated saltwater, dosed and gave a bath. I was exchanging water to avoid ammonia and overdose of kana. So every second bath he would have had a double dose.