Devils advocating

[MnFish1]

Is this the differences between norwegians and swedes? - it was clear for me after the second page :) :) (sorry MnFish1 - i´m not only a swede - I´m from Gotheburg - we can´t ressist open goals :))

Sincerely Lasse

I didn’t see any time where he said that he changed tanks more than 1 time. I could be wrong. Again I wasn’t trying to be offensive to him either. You’re right their are other possibilities and I liked all your posts suggesting them. My only point was that ‘common things are more likely than rare things:)

 

[Lasse]

I hope that you understand that I was joking.

But in this case when his experiences is in line with my owns - I´m not sure which explanation is common and which is rare. But - i can be wrong - it has happen before for sure :)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

I hope that you understand that I was joking.

But in this case when his experiences is in line with my owns - I´m not sure which explanation is common and which is rare. But - i can be wrong - it has happen before for sure :)

Sincerely Lasse

Which have you experienced similar previously. A fish going through QT and it not working? Or copper resistant CI? Sorry I don’t understand.

 

[naterealbig]

I'm sorry as well - you are misunderstanding my point (which was that I disagreed with your statement that to be completely 'sure' you need to QT for 76 days - that's all I disagreed with. - I posted I think before you that it would be very unlikely and the...[/B]

Egh, you're right - going back and reading my post, there should have been some qualifiers. For some reason, I didn't realize the OP put the fish directly into therapeutic levels of copper..... In this case, theoretically, the Protomont stage dies and the life cycle should end there.

 

[Mortie31]

One thing that’s confusing me is, the OP bought the fish from a LFS with copper at 2.7, how long had the fish been at the LFS before he bought it? He then quarantined for a further 14 days, how on earth did ICK survive all that? The fish could of been in copper for weeks if not months... If it had been in 2.7 copper at the LFS for 14 days that should of been more than enough time... before he started his quarantine..

 

[drstardust]

To the OP (@Wildreefs), you seem unhappy with the answers you've received. However, as the one who started this thread, what were your expectations from it?

Were you looking for an answer to what happened based on the knowledge we currently have? That was attempted quite thoroughly. Sometimes, even when things could be explained with current knowledge, an exact answer is just not found, unfortunately.

Were you looking for admission that we don't know as much as we think we know? That admission was made.

Were you looking for sympathy to your situation? That was given.

Is there something else you were looking for?

 

[Wildreefs]

One thing that’s confusing me is, the OP bought the fish from a LFS with copper at 2.7, how long had the fish been at the LFS before he bought it? He then quarantined for a further 14 days, how on earth did ICK survive all that? The fish could of been in copper for weeks if not months... If it had been in 2.7 copper at the LFS for 14 days that should of been more than enough time... before he started his quarantine..

In the tanks he sells fish out of (mars system) , written in the glass is common name of fish, price, and date acquired.

The fish I have gotten from there were there no less than 10 days, some as many as two months. I then do the 14 day drill with them, so at the very least, 24 days in continuous therapeutic (beyond theropeautic)

 

[Mortie31]

In the tanks he sells fish out of (mars system) , written in the glass is common name of fish, price, and date acquired.

The fish I have gotten from there were there no less than 10 days, some as many as two months. I then do the 14 day drill with them, so at the very least, 24 days in continuous therapeutic (beyond theropeautic)

It’s a strange outcome, if we assume the current knowledge on ICK lifecycle to be correct...

 

[MnFish1]

Nothing anyone said to @WildReef was meant in a mean or offensive manner imho. When a problem occurs and people want answers pretend it’s like a plane crash pilot error and all other things need to be considered. As well as @laase said so do new possibilities. Imagine a pilot saying well it can’t be my fault. Everyone here was trying to help.

 

[Wildreefs]

Or most likely his copper test was off... I would ask one of the 'QT experts' - but I've always heard that you should test daily if not twice daily when using QT (even if there is a low likelihood of adsorption).

Again - I'm not an expert but I am understanding that there has never been a case of copper resistant 'anything'. But you're right its possible...

The main reason I think the test is wrong BTW, is that copper at those concentrations (2.7) over long periods of time would result in sick fish (wouldn't they)?

For my test to be off, the meter has to be broken. Done numberous Times, with two different sets of eyes reading the instructions. The number on he screen was inline of what the recommend
MLs per gallon called for.

Brand new copper meter from marine depot, and again was consistent with instructional use and what it yielded.

Tested daily if there are things in okay that would call for that, examples sand, rock rubble, some filtration mediums etc.

As for would the fish be sick in 2.7, that is what most people myself would have thought, however the proof is in front of me. In fact in this water, is an x large Achilles tang since June, the price tag of it and sheer size have led it not to sell. That’s what, 8 months in it?

 

[Wildreefs]

To the OP (@Wildreefs), you seem unhappy with the answers you've received. However, as the one who started this thread, what were your expectations from it?

Didn’t have any, just similar cases

Were you looking for an answer to what happened based on the knowledge we currently have? That was attempted quite thoroughly. Sometimes, even when things could be explained with current knowledge, an exact answer is just not found, unfortunately.

All that needs to be said

Were you looking for admission that we don't know as much as we think we know? That admission was made.

Fair enough

Were you looking for sympathy to your situation? Nope, doesn’t help anyone

Is there something else you were looking for?

Was not looking for anything in particular, just seeing if this trend happened with anyone else.

My bigger purpose was to have this out there, so when someone like me comes along, they have reality in front of them, and less fantasy land.

I came here trying to do things the right, bullet proof way. I obtained the products outlined and listed in sticky’s that are sufficient and work.

I used them the recommended amount of times and extra for insurance (not dosage, but frequency, more often). It did not work, later to find out the product listed was in fact not up to standard, and is no longer listed (quick cure) (metroplex as well for Uronema)


People get slammed all the time for not quarantining, but the fact of the matter is, it sometimes does not work. I will no longer frown down upon someone who doesn’t quarantine, based on my experience.

So far, I have taken oerfectly fine fish on the outside, aggressive eaters , active, and slowly withered them down prophetically, to the point they don’t return.


Just last month, I took a fat yellow tang, and a pudgy flameback angel , eating everything on site, and brought them to the brink of death in copper, general cure, all in the name of they might have something.

I’m sure in a perfect world it would work, however there are too many gray areas.

Look at my thread for example, I stated I’m using copper with ttm to control ammonia, because using a sitting tank with x amount of meds wasn’t working for me. New water in a sterile rank to remove organic and not rely upon natural filtration.

Wasn’t until page four, nearly 80 posts down the line some realized that I was doing this, and saw there was no way of a cystc tomont etc to already be in the tank if I’m starting from scratch every 3 days.

Not blaming anyone, just I wrote abc, and it was interpreted d e and f.

Al the proof I needed to see with recommended drugs and use as with 3 chromis brought in. Came in with active Uronema, and a quick cure bath of 45 minutes, general cure every transfer, with metro in the food didn’t stop it.

I always read it as “metro” kills brook, where maybe it could say metro may help with brook, and ultimately it may be a false sense of security.

Again, not looking for sympathy or answers I want to hear, that doesn’t bring back 2 k in fish.

Just voicing it out there so some people can determine if all this potential work and aggravation gets you to a better place than if you hadn’t.

I am not against qt, better to have them die there and not risk tank, however I’m really in a no better spot than I was before. Perhaps if I break everything down again, restart, use cupramjnr instead of copper power, test 6x a day, my luck will change.

It’s all hypothetical, not fact

 

[MnFish1]

For my test to be off, the meter has to be broken. Done numberous Times, with two different sets of eyes reading the instructions. The number on he screen was inline of what the recommend
MLs per gallon called for.

Brand new copper meter from marine depot, and again was consistent with instructional use and what it yielded.

Tested daily if there are things in okay that would call for that, examples sand, rock rubble, some filtration mediums etc.

As for would the fish be sick in 2.7, that is what most people myself would have thought, however the proof is in front of me. In fact in this water, is an x large Achilles tang since June, the price tag of it and sheer size have led it not to sell. That’s what, 8 months in it?

Like I said when uncommon things happen there are going to be questions. Not just for your benefit but if there is a copper resistant CI out there it benefits everyone to know that. That’s why I was asking.

Theee is lots of evidence that it’s not a good idea to keep fish in copper for long periods. So if this guy is successful with copper levels that high my question was why/how? One possibility was testing error. Sorry that my opinion and remains my opinion. Bye testing.error can be lots of things. Stuff in the water. The test kit. Or an error in doing the test.

 

[Wildreefs]

Like I said when uncommon things happen there are going to be questions. Not just for your benefit but if there is a copper resistant CI out there it benefits everyone to know that. That’s why I was asking.

Theee is lots of evidence that it’s not a good idea to keep fish in copper for long periods. So if this guy is successful with copper levels that high my question was why/how? One possibility was testing error. Sorry that my opinion and remains my opinion. Bye testing.error can be lots of things. Stuff in the water. The test kit. Or an error in doing the test.

I understand, I’m just looking at what’s in front of me. Chromis thru 4 rounds metro and in food daily, still Uronema. Copper , albeit high amount, with ttm, still ich.

Lfs with high copper , hardly ever looses fish, they seem fine. Things that don’t add up with the knowledge around here.

Simply stating there are too many variables in play (parasite strains, purity of meds, whether or not they are even what is stated in bottle etc)

 

[MnFish1]

Was not looking for anything in particular, just seeing if this trend happened with anyone else.

My bigger purpose was to have this out there, so when someone like me comes along, they have reality in front of them, and less fantasy land.

I came here trying to do things the right, bullet proof way. I obtained the products outlined and listed in sticky’s that are sufficient and work.

I used them the recommended amount of times and extra for insurance (not dosage, but frequency, more often). It did not work, later to find out the product listed was in fact not up to standard, and is no longer listed (quick cure) (metroplex as well for Uronema)


People get slammed all the time for not quarantining, but the fact of the matter is, it sometimes does not work. I will no longer frown down upon someone who doesn’t quarantine, based on my experience.

So far, I have taken oerfectly fine fish on the outside, aggressive eaters , active, and slowly withered them down prophetically, to the point they don’t return.


Just last month, I took a fat yellow tang, and a pudgy flameback angel , eating everything on site, and brought them to the brink of death in copper, general cure, all in the name of they might have something.

I’m sure in a perfect world it would work, however there are too many gray areas.

Look at my thread for example, I stated I’m using copper with ttm to control ammonia, because using a sitting tank with x amount of meds wasn’t working for me. New water in a sterile rank to remove organic and not rely upon natural filtration.

Wasn’t until page four, nearly 80 posts down the line some realized that I was doing this, and saw there was no way of a cystc tomont etc to already be in the tank if I’m starting from scratch every 3 days.

Not blaming anyone, just I wrote abc, and it was interpreted d e and f.

Al the proof I needed to see with recommended drugs and use as with 3 chromis brought in. Came in with active Uronema, and a quick cure bath of 45 minutes, general cure every transfer, with metro in the food didn’t stop it.

I always read it as “metro” kills brook, where maybe it could say metro may help with brook, and ultimately it may be a false sense of security.

Again, not looking for sympathy or answers I want to hear, that doesn’t bring back 2 k in fish.

Just voicing it out there so some people can determine if all this potential work and aggravation gets you to a better place than if you hadn’t.

I am not against qt, better to have them die there and not risk tank, however I’m really in a no better spot than I was before. Perhaps if I break everything down again, restart, use cupramjnr instead of copper power, test 6x a day, my luck will change.

It’s all hypothetical, not fact

A quick comment that may make you feel better. It wouldn’t have been any better if you hadn’t used copper. Ie they still would have had ich. So don’t be too discouraged. What was the 2 k in fish that you had. Btw the chances are that many of your fish will survive in your day without anything. Consider a diatom filter? Or another filter that will take out ci to at least minimize the damage

 

[Lasse]

Which have you experienced similar previously. A fish going through QT and it not working? Or copper resistant CI? S

No but I have experiences with fish not showing any signs for ich, been in the tank for long time, fish moved to new tank with old fishes without any signs of disease, new fish developed ich - the old does not show anything. Fish left in the first tank - no signs of ich. Only the moved one shows signs of ich. This has happened both in fresh water and salt water (different species of parasites but the same type of life cycles). This have happened so often that I´m sure that there can be stages that´s latent at the fish body but do not show the white spots before something else happens that weakening the immune system. The example with low temperature shows this is possible with a stage that´s not developed into white spot before the environment change. Similar response can probably be linked to an immune response from the fish. It is known that infected fish can develop an immune response if they manage to survive an attack.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Lfs with high copper , hardly ever looses fish, they seem fine. Things that don’t add up with the knowledge around here.

Never denied that you can have a system that is disease free from ich with help of a high copper concentrations. However, it will turn out bad when the medication stops or/and give the fish other damages like supressed immune system and damage on the gill structure.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[drstardust]

Ultimately, experiences that vary from the norm are important to make note of. If enough such accounts are gathered, we as a community will realize oh crap, maybe things aren’t as they seem.

 

[MnFish1]

Never denied that you can have a system that is disease free from ich with help of a high copper concentrations. However, it will turn out bad when the medication stops or/and give the fish other damages like supressed immune system and damage on the gill structure.

Sincerely Lasse

So in the university of Florida summary article I think or maybe one of the original burgess ones it mentions that fish can act as carriers for ci on an established tank. Ie not affected by copper. On another thread I was told this was because of small amounts of ci repeatedly going through their lifecycle. However for each ci that falls off a fish. 100s are produced. I tend to believe at least on certain species they can continue to live on small numbers on the fish. And be immune to copper. We’re I going to quarantine I would never use copper but chloroquine. If I wanted to use medication

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Never denied that you can have a system that is disease free from ich with help of a high copper concentrations. However, it will turn out bad when the medication stops or/and give the fish other damages like supressed immune system and damage on the gill structure.

Sincerely Lasse

@Lasse

I do not believe in prophylactic treatment of fish. There I said it I have been outed as a heretic in the fish world. As such how did your friend design his holding system and how does he handle in coming fish to keep them healthy? Your answer may shed some light in this darkness.

Here is the real question for the rest of you that think you can create a disease free system with disease free fish. How in the world do you think fish survive in the wild when there are 1 million bacteria per cubic milliter in the ocean and 10 million viruses in that same sample size? Please answer that before you postulate that keeping fish in any other way that is different than the natural system they come from is somehow superior. The pages and pages of dead and dying fish in the treatment section of this R2R forum demand an answer. Until you can answer that talk to the hand.;Stop

I will be up front with you all I personally killed way more fish trying the prophylactic methods you recommend than other methods. And don't start with the you were just lucky. I learned in very short order running laboratories that the only way to survive and thrive in that environment is consistent and repeatable results. Anything else is a waste of time and resources.;Nailbiting

I operated at one time a local wholesale operation and processed hundreds of fish and inverts successfully and some not so succesfully. I have handled shark and rays which are way more difficult to handle than smaller ornamental fish. I depended on the science of repeatable results to keep the fish alive and develop a customer list of aquarium stores. All that said I am still very much a student in this art form we call a hobby. I ask these hard questions for people like @Wildreefs and myself who after using all the must use tools have had the same results. Time to stop casting about for answers and use what will work for the most people most of the time. It is abundantly clear that what is suggested with prophylaxis is not working for the vast majority of hobbiest period.:eek:

The hobby will die due to regulation or worse until we learn from nature how the system works and it clearly is not poison and antibiotics that the fish and inverts have never seen in all their lives until we capture them and try to clean them up for our aquarium.:(

 

[Wildreefs]

@Lasse

I do not believe in prophylactic treatment of fish. There I said it I have been outed as a heretic in the fish world. As such how did your friend design his holding system and how does he handle in coming fish to keep them healthy? Your answer may shed some light in this darkness.

Here is the real question for the rest of you that think you can create a disease free system with disease free fish. How in the world do you think fish survive in the wild when there are 1 million bacteria per cubic milliter in the ocean and 10 million viruses in that same sample size? Please answer that before you postulate that keeping fish in any other way that is different than the natural system they come from is somehow superior. The pages and pages of dead and dying fish in the treatment section of this R2R forum demand an answer. Until you can answer that talk to the hand.;Stop

I will be up front with you all I personally killed way more fish trying the prophylactic methods you recommend than other methods. And don't start with the you were just lucky. I learned in very short order running laboratories that the only way to survive and thrive in that environment is consistent and repeatable results. Anything else is a waste of time and resources.;Nailbiting

I operated at one time a local wholesale operation and processed hundreds of fish and inverts successfully and some not so succesfully. I have handled shark and rays which are way more difficult to handle than smaller ornamental fish. I depended on the science of repeatable results to keep the fish alive and develop a customer list of aquarium stores. All that said I am still very much a student in this art form we call a hobby. I ask these hard questions for people like @Wildreefs and myself who after using all the must use tools have had the same results. Time to stop casting about for answers and use what will work for the most people most of the time. It is abundantly clear that what is suggested with prophylaxis is not working for the vast majority of hobbiest period.:eek:

The hobby will die due to regulation or worse until we learn from nature how the system works and it clearly is not poison and antibiotics that the fish and inverts have never seen in all their lives until we capture them and try to clean them up for our aquarium.:(

I couldn’t have summed this up any more clearly, at least not at work typing on an iPhone .

I am all for the pursuit of the ideal aquarium. I broke down my tank in January, thinking i can outsmart the naysayers who say qt is a waste of time. I had the knowledge, tools, and willingness.

Turns out I didn’t have the first two, since parasite still escaped ttm and copper, as well as Uronema with multiple formalin and metro usage.

The last one, willingness, is hanging i the balance now. In now way am I prepared mentally to feel good about what is taking place not breaking down the tank again to take another swing at it.

I will try to use common sense and what sounds right. My lfs just lost a wild fire clown to brook last week after formalin dips. Makes sense, he was being returned to he same tank so it was bound to reinfect, if the formalin truly killed it in the first place(he ones in the fish)

But then I look and see 20 other clowns apart of this system living fine. If it’s so rapid and contagious, why aren’t they succoming to it? Had I not seen that fish the week it was there, and just saw the other clowns, would it be safe to say the rampant killer is not there ?

2k in fish I killed trying to treat something that may or may not have affected them.

Had multiple fish just stop eating, while other fed during treatment. I believe the flameback stressed himself into the ground on a glass box. Definitely acting different then the days prior sitting in lfs tank with sand and fake decorations.

Although ammonia was showing negative, I can’t help but think it was a factor. Even when I had a tank up and running for qt, no way was there wasn’t spikes from having 3-4 small fish in some 20 gallons of water.

Now if I was able to afford a large system, some few hundred gallons , I think the bioload would handle it, however we also tell people to add fish gradually to allow the bio population to scale up to the demand. How does one expect that in at qt, when it goes from nothing to 3-4 in an instant?

Once that part is delt with, even the survivors that made it thru copper, most likely some ammonia, stress from small empty tank, etc, still Carried it in, and all that for what?

If formalin really does shorten lives, then all I did was give them a shorter life expectancy, and did nothing towards what I was trying to reach.

Now in regards as to what lase (sp?) was saying about years of. I copper , I think the landscape has changed dramatically.

Instead of having lfs who carried everything in front of you, knowing you would need everything from tank, stand , skinner lights and snails from them, most of them have realized they can’t compete with the inline outlets, so in turn looked to make the most of the livestock. How does one do that?

By acquiring cheaper livestock. I know most guys get good stuff from quality marine, but also fill voids and get cheaper stuff from local places. Take quality fish, and mix them with cheaper, mass collected stuff, and well they don’t average out, you end up with whatever the low stuff brought in.

Same thing goes for captive bred. Taken clean, lab made fish from sterile tanks, and mix them with wild stuff like most places do, and the stuff isn’t clean anymore.

Also, with the increase of shipping , places are shipping with less water, which is more ammonia, more proximity with the nasty stuff such as parasites , bacteria etc. mos chromis are shipped in a Few ounces of water or less.

All this efficiency helps with hard goods I suppose , but the livestock doesn’t deviate from the standards they’ve had.

See it with corals, drags get smaller and smaller, and colonies are hacked up and sold very tiny. Can’t cut a fish in half to sell it twice, but you can cut corners around the fish with trying to save.

I think this is part of the reason fish health has declined. There a ton of lfs in the nyc area that only sell livestock, and are selling them cheap only to put the burden of death on the buyer. All about how far up the chain you can move them.

Places that raise captive fish have the right intentions. Problem is, they only sell direct to lfs outlets, which again mix them with wild, and by the time the consumer gets them, the captive notion is far gone.

I have a few parrots, I obtained them from breeders who don’t even let you in the aviary out of fear of you introducing something to them. Could have come from petsmart of a park with a wild disease, and they can’t trust that to enter in their facility.

Why are captive fish different?