Diagnosis for Royal Gramma?

[4ktvs]

So I took a video of what seems like scratching against the glass instead of the rock. My Clownfish hasn't really seemed quite right the last day or two, but for now hasn't thrown up food or scrached himself like the Royal Gramma has. I did a %30 water change today because it's been two weeks since the last one and that seemed to stress the fish.

The tank has only been running less than a month and has always held it's cycle since it finished. Both fish come from same LFS tank. There are no other fish in this tank nor have there ever been. I'm rather new to keeping saltwater fish myself. I'd rather not needlessly stress the fish with a treatment that would never work or is considered to be ineffective. So any advice or possible diagnosis/treatment from those more experienced than I would be helpful.

Link to video -

 

[Suohhen]

The fish look fine to me, they both appear to be showing aggression to their own reflections in the glass. But just to be safe let's see what the experts think. @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

 

[vetteguy53081]

I don’t see anything that jumps out that suggests a parasitical issue This could be early stage parasite, or even flukes.
A freshwater dip for 4-5 mins will provide temporary relief and address flukes if present. It may be a little premature for addition of fish as you may experience spikes especially with ammonia and nitrate.
What test kits are you using ?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I took a video of what seems like scratching against the glass instead of the rock. My Clownfish hasn't really seemed quite right the last day or two, but for now hasn't thrown up food or scrached himself like the Royal Gramma has. I did a %30 water change today because it's been two weeks since the last one and that seemed to stress the fish.

The tank has only been running less than a month and has always held it's cycle since it finished. Both fish come from same LFS tank. There are no other fish in this tank nor have there ever been. I'm rather new to keeping saltwater fish myself. I'd rather not needlessly stress the fish with a treatment that would never work or is considered to be ineffective. So any advice or possible diagnosis/treatment from those more experienced than I would be helpful.

Link to video -

The clownfish looks o.k., the gramma could be territorial, or it could be flashing due to gill flukes. At first I thought gill flukes for sure, but then, I saw it make a furtive dash against the glass, and that is more indicative of a reaction to its own reflection. If you can modify the tank lighting so as to reduce the reflections and it still flashes, then suspect gill flukes. Also, if you see it flash off of non-reflective surfaces, it is gill flukes.

Still, the basic idea is that EVERY new marine fish should be quarantined and treated. I know many/most people don't do that, but the reality is that there are a lot of disease issues that crop up within the first 75 days ofr so. Ich is often seen in a couple of weeks, flukes don't show up until 4 to 8 weeks in.

If you can confirm it isn't just battling itself, you can treat the tank 2x with Prazipro, following label directions, and given the tank good aeration during the treatment.

Secondly, inspect the fish daily for three things: ich spots, not eating well and rapid breathing. Those can be signs of other issues.

Jay

 

[4ktvs]

The clownfish looks o.k., the gramma could be territorial, or it could be flashing due to gill flukes. At first I thought gill flukes for sure, but then, I saw it make a furtive dash against the glass, and that is more indicative of a reaction to its own reflection. If you can modify the tank lighting so as to reduce the reflections and it still flashes, then suspect gill flukes. Also, if you see it flash off of non-reflective surfaces, it is gill flukes.

Still, the basic idea is that EVERY new marine fish should be quarantined and treated. I know many/most people don't do that, but the reality is that there are a lot of disease issues that crop up within the first 75 days ofr so. Ich is often seen in a couple of weeks, flukes don't show up until 4 to 8 weeks in.

If you can confirm it isn't just battling itself, you can treat the tank 2x with Prazipro, following label directions, and given the tank good aeration during the treatment.

Secondly, inspect the fish daily for three things: ich spots, not eating well and rapid breathing. Those can be signs of other issues.

Jay

The Gramma is territorial and has been more aggressive the last few days toward the clownfish. However he has also rubbed against the rock before so I think there are flukes. Both fish like to eat though the Gramma has thrown up twice before in the past week. I have noticed the clown fish eatting a bit less and having a bit less energy. It also seemed like his poop has gone from brown to a bit more gray.

Bought some Prazipro and dosed it after removing the carbon. Don't know if the clownfish might also have flukes or has something else.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The Gramma is territorial and has been more aggressive the last few days toward the clownfish. However he has also rubbed against the rock before so I think there are flukes. Both fish like to eat though the Gramma has thrown up twice before in the past week. I have noticed the clown fish eatting a bit less and having a bit less energy. It also seemed like his poop has gone from brown to a bit more gray.

Bought some Prazipro and dosed it after removing the carbon. Don't know if the clownfish might also have flukes or has something else.

Yes, different symptoms in the clown, but one step at a time I guess. I dose Prazipro twice, 7 to 10 days apart, in case the flukes are an egg laying species (prazi doesn’t kill the eggs, they need to hatch out).
Jay

 

[4ktvs]

Yes, different symptoms in the clown, but one step at a time I guess. I dose Prazipro twice, 7 to 10 days apart, in case the flukes are an egg laying species (prazi doesn’t kill the eggs, they need to hatch out).
Jay

I do have a question about what good tank aeration looks like. So far the return pump has done a good job at pushing water at the surface and allowing much of the surface area to be good for gas exchange. Do I need something like an air stone or should having most of the surface water being pushed around be good enough?

 

[Fares Awiga]

my Royal Gramma did the same and died 3 days ago..

 

[4ktvs]

So I tried an air stone last night and the Clownfish really didn't like it. He shoved himself into a corner and then I came back to him laying on the ground breathing heavy so I took it out. He mostly returned to normal almost right away. It was extremely loud so maybe the noice stressed him out. Don't really know the cause here for why it caused an issue.

The Royal Gramma is still at times flashing against the glass or rock though not nearly as much. The clownfish poop is brown again and not stringy anymore. He does seem low engery and doesn't eat quite as much. Also the clownfish seems to randomly twitch every once in a while. Still perks up a lot to feeding though.

 

[4ktvs]

Took some video yesterday of the fish and the Royal Gramma wasn't flashing as much. Today both the Royal Gramma and even the Clownfish are flashing a lot. So now I'm wondering how long should it take for the treatment to become effective if this is flukes.

I could post video of the Royal Gramma flashing easily, but the clownfish never seems to do it when recorded. Both fish ate well today, but really seem to be in great distress otherwise. Like much worse off than they were yesterday.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Took some video yesterday of the fish and the Royal Gramma wasn't flashing as much. Today both the Royal Gramma and even the Clownfish are flashing a lot. So now I'm wondering how long should it take for the treatment to become effective if this is flukes.

I could post video of the Royal Gramma flashing easily, but the clownfish never seems to do it when recorded. Both fish ate well today, but really seem to be in great distress otherwise. Like much worse off than they were yesterday.

Typically, prazi causes the flukes to fall off within a few hours. The holes in the fish's skin then take a few days to heal, and if there are a LOT of flukes, when they fall off, they leave so many tiny holes in the fish's skin that the fish becomes anemic and can die...that can't be helped because if you don't treat them, they will also die.

So - If you dose with prazi and the fish get better, but start flashing again in 5 days to a week, that is due to new flukes hatching out from eggs, like I had mentioned. if you dose with prazi and the fish stop flashing as much, but then they start up again the very next day, that is tough for me to say why that would be.

Jay

 

[4ktvs]

Typically, prazi causes the flukes to fall off within a few hours. The holes in the fish's skin then take a few days to heal, and if there are a LOT of flukes, when they fall off, they leave so many tiny holes in the fish's skin that the fish becomes anemic and can die...that can't be helped because if you don't treat them, they will also die.

So - If you dose with prazi and the fish get better, but start flashing again in 5 days to a week, that is due to new flukes hatching out from eggs, like I had mentioned. if you dose with prazi and the fish stop flashing as much, but then they start up again the very next day, that is tough for me to say why that would be.

Jay

It was dosed on Thursday and they got better the next day. Then less flashing yesterday and now on day 3 it's like something has gripped them both fairly badly. Can the flukes come back in 3 days? Because it seems like both are breathing heavier and are irritable to a level I haven't seen before.

The bottle of prazipro does say you can treat in 3 days after the last dose, but would that be a good idea and what are the odds this is like an infection or other illness than flukes?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It was dosed on Thursday and they got better the next day. Then less flashing yesterday and now on day 3 it's like something has gripped them both fairly badly. Can the flukes come back in 3 days? Because it seems like both are breathing heavier and are irritable to a level I haven't seen before.

The bottle of prazipro does say you can treat in 3 days after the last dose, but would that be a good idea and what are the odds this is like an infection or other illness than flukes?

I can’t say for certain - it does seem a short time for flukes to return, but since it gave good results the first time, I’d try it again. If no relief the second time, then it may be something else (though nothing clearly comes to mind in that regard).
Jay

 

[4ktvs]

I can’t say for certain - it does seem a short time for flukes to return, but since it gave good results the first time, I’d try it again. If no relief the second time, then it may be something else (though nothing clearly comes to mind in that regard).
Jay

So I just did a water change and new dose prazipro. The Clownfish is flashing so much that I did manage to catch it on video once. When he does it it's now bad enough he rubs against something 3+ times in a row when he does flash.

I have not seen the Royal Gramma much, but he flashed as well on the sand and on the pump outlet. For some reason he seems to prefer darting up and rubbing against the pump outlet over any other surface in the tank.

 

[4ktvs]

Also here is two video clips:

Short Video:





Longer Video:

 

[4ktvs]

It seems Prazipro treatment is ineffective. Both fish are still flashing on sand, rock and other surfaces. Put in active carbon today to get the medication out.

Don't know what I should try next.

 

[4ktvs]

I think it's more like ich because the Royal Gramma has broken out in spots all over the place.

Video:

 

[Suohhen]

So sorry I meant to reply to your earlier posts and it slipped my mind. There is almost certainly some ich but I can't tell for sure from the video. It could very well be velvet especially from the descriptions and the way the fish have been acting. Can you try to get a clear picture of the fish in white light and lets see if we can get the experts back in here. @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

 

[4ktvs]

So sorry I meant to reply to your earlier posts and it slipped my mind. There is almost certainly some ich but I can't tell for sure from the video. It could very well be velvet especially from the descriptions and the way the fish have been acting. Can you try to get a clear picture of the fish in white light and lets see if we can get the experts back in here. @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

I haven't been able to get a clear picture since the fish move so much. Did see spots on the clownfish once I got close enough under the light and zoomed in enough. Would really like to know what the best treatment option for this is becuase it seems like the fish have been going down hill quickly yesterday and today.

Edit: A best effort picture of the clownfish below

 

[Suohhen]

Well there are two things, the first and most important is fish health so if you can get a qt set up and dose chloroquine phosphate you'll have both ich and velvet covered.
2nd is what to do about the display and following the new ich fallow guidelines you'll be covered for both.

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