Diagnosis for Royal Gramma?

[4ktvs]

So I took a video of what seems like scratching against the glass instead of the rock. My Clownfish hasn't really seemed quite right the last day or two, but for now hasn't thrown up food or scrached himself like the Royal Gramma has. I did a %30 water change today because it's been two weeks since the last one and that seemed to stress the fish.

The tank has only been running less than a month and has always held it's cycle since it finished. Both fish come from same LFS tank. There are no other fish in this tank nor have there ever been. I'm rather new to keeping saltwater fish myself. I'd rather not needlessly stress the fish with a treatment that would never work or is considered to be ineffective. So any advice or possible diagnosis/treatment from those more experienced than I would be helpful.

Link to video -

 

[Suohhen]

No, all of the ammonia removers have the potential to cause this. Trouble is, the only way to test for this is to try it and see if the fish die, and I’m just not set up for that type of experimenting....so it remains just a theory.
Jay

Thx for the info.

 

[4ktvs]

What are you measuring the ammonia with? Some tests aren’t very accurate, and your .25 reading could be low.
Water changes can be done by just replacing the proportional amount of copper for the exact amount of new water you are adding. Bacteria n a bottle will give long term relief from high ammonia.
Jay

I'm using the API test kit. It looked between 0 and .25 so I assuming it's closer to .25. I'll likely order some bacteria soon. I decided to change 2 gallons of the water in the mean time.

The clownfish darted across the tank faster than I've ever seen him move so I'm assuming he is still doing relatively well. His change in behavor might just be due to not wanting to be in the high flow to rest after spending nearly all of yesterday and this morning right under where the water dumps into the tank.

 

[Suohhen]

api, especially ammonia often gives false positives and can't be relied upon. It isn't guaranteed that the cloudiness is a bacterial bloom but it's kind of likely given there isn't much else in the tank. Regardless if you don't see the clown breathing heavily it is likely a false positive and the fish is likely just stressed from the copper and new environment. I'd try to leave him alone for a bit and make sure there is a good hiding space.
A biofilter out of the display is enough for most qts but the bottle of bac is certainly a good insurance plan.

 

[adittam]

I’m sorry you’re going through this.

I would recommend treating the clownfish with an entire QT protocol as outlined in this sticky thread, since you don’t really know it only has one disease process going on.

Current Quarantine Protocol

My bucket has the water measuring Mark's I have no other way to measure the water. So that part I have no choice but to *wing* it. So if i make a new bucket it wont have the tank water, it will be freshly made. Wont this force an ammonia spike due to the water not being cycled? I cant afford...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[adittam]

On a qt tank you can use Seachem Prime to quell the accumulation of ammonia and nitrate but as Jay said a product like dr tims or other live bacteria as well. Don't use a product with dormant bacteria. Like I said I personally would use chloroquine phosphate to be safe and doesn't require a test kit like copper but is certainly less effective than copper against ich. I just feel from your descriptions that it might very well be velvet. The issue is it has been a long time but that is kind of how this goes. They get sick/stressed from one thing and then comes on the next.
Ultimately you are the one on the best position to judge since you can see it with your own eyes so read up on velvet and ich and make your own call.

Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum)

Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum) What You Need To Know: * Fast killing parasite capable of wiping out most of your fish in just a matter of days. Sometimes there are survivors, sometimes not. * Can be treated in a quarantine tank using Chloroquine phosphate or Copper. A 5...

www.reef2reef.com

Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)

Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) What You Need To Know: * Mild fish parasite which is often managed by using a UV Sterilizer, Ozone, Diatom Filter, Oxydator, herbal remedies, enhanced nutrition, etc. etc. * Can be treated in a quarantine tank using Hyposalinity, Chloroquine, Copper or...

www.reef2reef.com

It is strongly recommended to not use ammonia neutralizing chemicals in hospital tanks, because of what @Jay Hemdal mentioned about it making some copper treatments toxic, and I believe it also makes it impossible to get an accurate reading on many ammonia tests after using them.

Also, see 3rd bullet point under “helpful hints”:

Some Helpful Hints When Posting or Responding to Threads in the Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis Section

Aquarium Fish Disease Problem Solving Determining the best course of action for a problem with your aquarium can be a difficult task. Even advanced aquarists will often need to seek the help of others for complicated or unique issues. Our intent here on Reef 2 Reef is to offer expert advice...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[DrZoidburg]

Copper treatment, tank transfers, fallow periods, chloroquine. Some things you can try to beat the lifecycles. Also if it still is flukes, they may be resistant to prazi, you might have to try something stronger. Hard to tell from these pictures.

 

[fachatga]

I hate you’re going through this. But know that you’re acting as a model for us all on how to handle these situations. Most of us have little to no experience with sick fish especially those new to the hobby. It’s so easy to just hope for the best or try an easier path even if it won’t be effective. I really hope it works out. You’re doing great and don’t give up. So many people not in the hobby think fish more as decorations and expendable but they are pets same as cats and dogs. But unlike cats and dogs we can’t take them to the vet and need to treat them ourselves with no training. I hope anybody watching this thread is taking this as the example on how to do it. None of us are perfect. We make mistakes. It even so we need to try whatever we can and get advise. Keep going. We’re all here supporting you and hoping for a good outcome.

 

[NaturalGothic]

He appears to be fine. Whenever my rose BT anemone moves to a new spot, my clownfish follow and obsessively rub their faces on the new rock. It

keep a close eye and be diligent; saltwater disease spreads quickly and is often times deadly. Better to keep a closer eye for now.

 

[4ktvs]

api, especially ammonia often gives false positives and can't be relied upon. It isn't guaranteed that the cloudiness is a bacterial bloom but it's kind of likely given there isn't much else in the tank. Regardless if you don't see the clown breathing heavily it is likely a false positive and the fish is likely just stressed from the copper and new environment. I'd try to leave him alone for a bit and make sure there is a good hiding space.
A biofilter out of the display is enough for most qts but the bottle of bac is certainly a good insurance plan.

The clownfish remains on the bottom of the tank and the water has gotten very cloudy. Tried to feed him and he didn't seem interested at all today. Might take and upload a video later.

 

[Suohhen]

The clownfish remains on the bottom of the tank and the water has gotten very cloudy. Tried to feed him and he didn't seem interested at all today. Might take and upload a video later.

It would definitely be good to see a video so what the cloudiness looks like. Being on the bottom on itself isn't alarming unless he is laying down but are there any other things your noticing? Heavy breathing, change in appearance, lack or orientation and such. Also how/what are you feeling the fish? And do you turn off the hob?

 

[Suohhen]

It is strongly recommended to not use ammonia neutralizing chemicals in hospital tanks, because of what @Jay Hemdal mentioned about it making some copper treatments toxic, and I believe it also makes it impossible to get an accurate reading on many ammonia tests after using them.

Also, see 3rd bullet point under “helpful hints”:

Some Helpful Hints When Posting or Responding to Threads in the Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis Section

Aquarium Fish Disease Problem Solving Determining the best course of action for a problem with your aquarium can be a difficult task. Even advanced aquarists will often need to seek the help of others for complicated or unique issues. Our intent here on Reef 2 Reef is to offer expert advice...

www.reef2reef.com

I have heard plenty of complaints about prime and have never had an issue with it myself even though I have used it for years on qt but I don't prophylactically treat with copper. I find a lot of things in this hobby have the issue of some people swearing by it's efficacy and others wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft pole. Qt itself is one of these topics, but if Jay says he doesn't recommend it I will take his word as he has earned that respect and I also don't like to argue on threads pertaining to disease as fish health is what is of the utmost importance and not ego.

 

[4ktvs]

It would definitely be good to see a video so what the cloudiness looks like. Being on the bottom on itself isn't alarming unless he is laying down but are there any other things your noticing? Heavy breathing, change in appearance, lack or orientation and such. Also how/what are you feeling the fish? And do you turn off the hob?

The cloudiness went away in a few days and the clownfish has been eating pellets twice a day like he used to. For some reason the Clownfish does hangout toward a bottom corner during most daylight hours, but then in the morning and at night swims around everywhere.

I don't turn off the HOB during feeding since it does seem like the clownfish can deal with the flow when he wants to just fine.

 

[Suohhen]

The cloudiness went away in a few days and the clownfish has been eating pellets twice a day like he used to. For some reason the Clownfish does hangout toward a bottom corner during most daylight hours, but then in the morning and at night swims around everywhere.

I don't turn off the HOB during feeding since it does seem like the clownfish can deal with the flow when he wants to just fine.

Great to see the fish are turning the corner. It is sad to see how many of these threads end in bad news but there is still a positive impact that all this goes to educate and guide not only the op but others who choose to join in.
I often say it is the fish keeper who is in the best position to figure out what is going on as there is too many limitations to photos and a brief statement and if something like say Velvet is apparent in photos it is sadly often too late at that point.
Your success turning things around is truly to be commended and ofc the fact that we have access to these experts every day of the year is the biggest blessing.

 

[Ocean’s Piece]

Wow this is truly amazing! Most of these threads I read result in little to no effort in trying to save the fish and usually end in the death of the fish. You’re showing everyone, myself included, that you can overcome fish disease if you put the effort and money to treat it. Sorry for the loss of the gramma. I’m glad your clownfish is showing signs of hope. Good luck on the rest of your treatment on this clown.

 

[4ktvs]

It's been past 30 days now and the fish has looked fine for quite some time so I put some active carbon in the filter. Don't yet know what the best way would be to put him back into the display tank. I mean first I need to clean it and then I'm honestly wondering if fallow is worth it over just drying it all out and starting over again.

 

[Suohhen]

It's been past 30 days now and the fish has looked fine for quite some time so I put some active carbon in the filter. Don't yet know what the best way would be to put him back into the display tank. I mean first I need to clean it and then I'm honestly wondering if fallow is worth it over just drying it all out and starting over again.

Reef tanks take a long time to establish maturity and stability so I wouldn't recommend restarting. The fish has already been exposed to whatever disease was present and got past it so even if it is still present in the display it'll be fine but the point of going fallow is to eliminate the parasite from the display completely. So basically the options are stay fallow, restart, or do what most people do and accept the fact that disease may still be present but do everything you can to keep the fish as healthy as possible within that framework.

 

[4ktvs]

Reef tanks take a long time to establish maturity and stability so I wouldn't recommend restarting. The fish has already been exposed to whatever disease was present and got past it so even if it is still present in the display it'll be fine but the point of going fallow is to eliminate the parasite from the display completely. So basically the options are stay fallow, restart, or do what most people do and accept the fact that disease may still be present but do everything you can to keep the fish as healthy as possible within that framework.

So would it be okay to use the net in the QT and then use it to put him in the DT or would that possibly leak copper into it?

 

[Suohhen]

Copper is natually in salt water at low levels so a tiny amount of transfer is nothing but it is best to minimize the amount of water transfer for a number of reasons so what I do is catch the fish with a clear container with slits on the side, a net works as well but there is some risk of hurting fish with a net so I try to avoid when possible. And then I give the fish a freshwater dip before moving just to make sure they are free of any visible parasites and whatnot and this would rinse away/dilute whatever is in your qt water.

 

[4ktvs]

Copper is natually in salt water at low levels so a tiny amount of transfer is nothing but it is best to minimize the amount of water transfer for a number of reasons so what I do is catch the fish with a clear container with slits on the side, a net works as well but there is some risk of hurting fish with a net so I try to avoid when possible. And then I give the fish a freshwater dip before moving just to make sure they are free of any visible parasites and whatnot and this would rinse away/dilute whatever is in your qt water.

What I ended up doing was use a cup, dump most of the water out and let the clownfish go into the display. I also just got a blue reef chromis and put him in the QT. Sadly many fish at the LFS had white spots including some of the other chromis so he will need to be treated.