Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[kecked]

@Velcro

Didn't you get a jebao UV?

Painfully so yes I did. Knee jerked again. First it’s too high a power and huge and second it’s poorly made. And...third I should have let the nutrients do their thing. I am thinking this over sized uv will kill all the good stuff in the water too. At least I read this can be the case. The more I learn the less I’m sure anymore.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Just got some photos of my problem algae here at work. I am a nurse in a Mohs surgery unit, we have a really nice microscope. I think I have a mixture of Diatoms and some sort of Dino going on here. Populations are currently fading but still show up by the end of the day. @taricha, @mcarroll, @reeferfoxx can you all help me with an ID of what is in these photos?

Ostriopsis

 

[reeferfoxx]

Painfully so yes I did. Knee jerked again. First it’s too high a power and huge and second it’s poorly made. And...third I should have let the nutrients do their thing. I am thinking this over sized uv will kill all the good stuff in the water too. At least I read this can be the case. The more I learn the less I’m sure anymore.

If you are running a sump or refugium the majority of your microfauna will be fine as well as swimming back through the return pipe. Again having the UV in the display or coming from the overflow will only impact the water column. Anything else that is beneficial will stay relatively close to the sand and rocks which is more important. UV in of itself isn't detrimental to microbial communities.

 

[fragit]

Ostriopsis

Thanks Foxx, I thought so. Did some Googling and came up with the same thing.

 

[Mike S]

Its been a while since I've had to do any chemistry and was hoping that someone could spot check my stock solution for PO4 dosing created with trisodium phosphate. Here goes nothing...

Na3PO4

atomic
weight total
Na 22.9 x 3 = 68.97
P 30.974 x 1 = 30.974
O 15.999 x 4 = 63.996
Total 163.94
PO4 % by weight = 94.97/163.94 = 58.9%
5 grams in 1.4 liters of water will create stock solution with 2.07 mg/ml
31 ml dosed into 340 gallons will raise PO4 by 0.05 mg/l

 

[taricha]

Hi guys. how are you? I hope you can help me, a friend of mine has dose strange thinks in his beautifull nano tank and I would like to help him identify it

what do you thing? Diatoms maybe?

I do think diatoms. The slow slide like that seems similar, as well as the shape.

DinoX is back in stock on BulkReefSupply, I know that some may not have success with this but I saw a few others that were able to get rid of Dino with this.

I've read many more complaints of coral suffering than I have of Dinos being eliminated with this product. Also a few reports of it suppressing algae growth, which might be desirable in other contexts but is the opposite of what we are aiming for here.

I'll definitely focus on the PO4 over the Ozone, but I'm still strongly considering one for the other benefits Ozone provides.

sodium percarbonate instead of peroxide? Oxyclean....not going to try this but it looks like a winner but if I did try I’d use pure. I suspect surfactants in oxyclean. Only adds ions you want plus the peroxide. And it’s cheap. I also think it might break down slower and be more gentle.

Web seems to say 1-3 changes of water per hour. Also going slower than this can kill all your plankton.
40000 or more uv units is too much for reef. Slower you go the higher the dose. So my idea of putting 55w on my 75gal isn’t to sharp an idea unless I massive increase flowrate. Looks like about 10-20w is about right. I am working counter to the entire idea of increasing bacteria levels to kill dinos. I’ll try it for a week but I think it’s a bad idea.

A couple of issues with oxidizers: First, some stubborn dino cases (especially those with strong sandbed presence) have found that ramping up doses of oxidizers higher and higher still didn't get all the dinos even at levels that were clearly harming livestock.
Second and here's the more general big picture issue. The whole concept of dosing nutrients and removing starvation is to grow other things and fill the dino niche with something else - or many somethings that can make the system more healthy and stable. Oxidizers are very general and wage mostly indiscriminate war on a tank. Photosynthesizers are hit especially hard. Nothing else this thread is about makes sense if we make the tank an oxidizer party and suppress the bottom of the food chain so strongly.

I do recommend that everyone read up and do their homework. Ozone and UV are quietly used by some of the best in the hobby for a reason. Ozone is also used in commercial and home air conditioning systems quite safely...

Ozone works for some, much better results than people who did other oxidizers (h2o2, bleach etc). However, let me say it this way. For our approach Ozone has definite downsides versus UV, and from everything I've seen - UV has no big downsides relative to Ozone.

Ozone effects more than just Dino's. That's what needs to be talked about. This thread is all about rebuilding what Dino's takes away. Ozone can potentially suppress that progression. Also UV and Ozone operate differently and shouldn't be considered similar.

pretty much this...

Its been about two weeks since I have seen any significant dinos on my rock, sand bed or glass. It has however persisted and taken out a few sps frags and colonies. My nitrate has been hanging steady around 8 ppm. I need to dose phosphate every two or three days to keep it in the 0.05 to 0.10 ppm range. Already running UV. Any other suggestions or is it just a matter of staying the course?

Run GAC to make sure toxins in water are pulled out. Don't let PO4 crash (sounds like you are doing well here). blast surfaces to push Dinos into the water and into UV contact. You can also shorten daylight period by a few hours to increase Dino time in water and their UV contact.
The coral deaths are interesting - in that they seem in many cases harder to pinpoint the cause of than the dino outbreak itself.

Just got some photos of my problem algae here at work. I am a nurse in a Mohs surgery unit, we have a really nice microscope. I think I have a mixture of Diatoms and some sort of Dino going on here. Populations are currently fading but still show up by the end of the day.

Everything in the photo - other than the sesame seed shapes that were ID correctly as ostreopsis - are diatoms.

Painfully so yes I did. Knee jerked again. First it’s too high a power and huge and second it’s poorly made. And...third I should have let the nutrients do their thing. I am thinking this over sized uv will kill all the good stuff in the water too. At least I read this can be the case. The more I learn the less I’m sure anymore.

These don't seem to be concerns encountered in this thread. No downside to overpowered UV (except maybe hot tank water). Nothing in the water that UV kills seems to be a thing that's important and beneficial in the context of fighting dinos in this thread.

 

[mcarroll]

Nice images @fragit! What scope/camera are you using?

 

[miPapareef]

I really want to say thanks to all those adding to this thread.

I’ve had dino’s since August but didn’t know what it was until November. My “patience” (read inaction) led to thick mats coving everything and about 1/4” of dead Dino’s laying in my sump.
In December I bought a microscope and this is the most prevalent type I had then. A ball shape with large rifts and they spin rapidly.

I made a half hearted attempt at following the instructions in the thread because each time I started dosing N and P the tank looked worse. Not only did I have the dino’s but also all the algae. And all the up and down in P level led to corals going south. So for the month of January and February I just ignored it. By mid February the dino’s changed to a mix of two or three kinds. There was now a type of larger disks with the center circle that swim more straight and some that are much smaller than the others that also swim in straight lines.

Well in late February, I finally got serious about following the instructions. Bought dozers for N and P, and started testing 2 times a day. I was dosing 60ml per day of NeoPhos to get to 0.1. And I started removing all the detritus from the sump. I also added a 40W UV at 167 GPH, but I do have it plumbed in the sump. Now I’m down to 6ml per day NeoPhos and no nitrate dosing. I’ve been doing all that since March first, but finally today is the first day came home to a clean sand bed. The microscope still shows dino’s but it’s also showing significant amounts of other life.

I know this is just the start and long ways to go, but I sure did like the way the tank looked tonight.

So a big thank you to everyone here!

 

[taricha]

I made a half hearted attempt at following the instructions in the thread because each time I started dosing N and P the tank looked worse. Not only did I have the dino’s but also all the algae.

I know this is just the start and long ways to go, but I sure did like the way the tank looked tonight.

A lot of people miss your point, adding nutrients will often make things look worse in the short term. But it is necessary to take the tank to a different place than it was.
Well done. You are so far along. The hurdles you crossed already are much tougher than anything you have left.

BTW, 1st shot is coolia, and the identifiable dino in the others is prorocentrum.

 

[Jolanta]

I do think diatoms. The slow slide like that seems similar, as well as the shape.


I've read many more complaints of coral suffering than I have of Dinos being eliminated with this product. Also a few reports of it suppressing algae growth, which might be desirable in other contexts but is the opposite of what we are aiming for here.






A couple of issues with oxidizers: First, some stubborn dino cases (especially those with strong sandbed presence) have found that ramping up doses of oxidizers higher and higher still didn't get all the dinos even at levels that were clearly harming livestock.
Second and here's the more general big picture issue. The whole concept of dosing nutrients and removing starvation is to grow other things and fill the dino niche with something else - or many somethings that can make the system more healthy and stable. Oxidizers are very general and wage mostly indiscriminate war on a tank. Photosynthesizers are hit especially hard. Nothing else this thread is about makes sense if we make the tank an oxidizer party and suppress the bottom of the food chain so strongly.


Ozone works for some, much better results than people who did other oxidizers (h2o2, bleach etc). However, let me say it this way. For our approach Ozone has definite downsides versus UV, and from everything I've seen - UV has no big downsides relative to Ozone.


pretty much this...


Run GAC to make sure toxins in water are pulled out. Don't let PO4 crash (sounds like you are doing well here). blast surfaces to push Dinos into the water and into UV contact. You can also shorten daylight period by a few hours to increase Dino time in water and their UV contact.
The coral deaths are interesting - in that they seem in many cases harder to pinpoint the cause of than the dino outbreak itself.


Everything in the photo - other than the sesame seed shapes that were ID correctly as ostreopsis - are diatoms.


These don't seem to be concerns encountered in this thread. No downside to overpowered UV (except maybe hot tank water). Nothing in the water that UV kills seems to be a thing that's important and beneficial in the context of fighting dinos in this thread.

Thanks Taricha!

 

[fragit]

Nice images @fragit! What scope/camera are you using?

I have no idea what kind it is. It’s a micrographic surgical microscope with a built in camera. I believe it’s a $2K scope. I will find out though.

 

[FloatinBy]

following

 

[Nirethell]

Good morning everyone!

Unfortunately a few weeks ago I joined this Fantastic club.

Hi, My name is Nirethell, and I have a Dino problem.

It took me a few weeks to admit it, I tried blackouts, kept it at bay. scoured the forums, I didn't want to admit to myself that I had something as terrible as dinos. I did SOOO many water-changes. It always came back with vengeance.

Luckily, you would never know by staring at my tank from afar. my maintenance habits do not allow it to accumulate.

So After doing all the wrong things, and eventually stumbling on this forum for the last week and a half this is what i have been doing.

1) Took my GFO reactor Offline
2) Stopped Doing waterchanges
3) Been blowing off all surfaces of dinos sometimes up to 4 times a day (thanks to my gf for helping while I'm at work)
4) Changing out the sock after the last time of blowing off.. (rule of thumb has been blow off wait 15 if more blow off. if nothing after 15, change the sock) *edit* I also stir up the sand bed once a day
5) started to bring up N and P, I have seachem flourish nitrogen and phosphorus on the way should be here today or tomorrow sometime.

I am planning on buying a UV sterilizer. my question to this wonderful forum would be, I have a 90 gallon tank, I was looking at the coral-life turbo twister 18w. Would this do or do i need something more powerful?

I know it depends on the type of dinos I have, and I will eventually get a microscope to find out, but I am thinking that I have Ostriopsis. Only because its not inherently located on my sand-bed, it really likes to accumulate anywhere else, almost feels like its just within the water-column and when it meets something it just kinda sticks.

 

[mcarroll]

Well in late February, I finally got serious about following the instructions. Bought dozers for N and P, and started testing 2 times a day. I was dosing 60ml per day of NeoPhos to get to 0.1. And I started removing all the detritus from the sump. I also added a 40W UV at 167 GPH, but I do have it plumbed in the sump. Now I’m down to 6ml per day NeoPhos and no nitrate dosing. I’ve been doing all that since March first, but finally today is the first day came home to a clean sand bed. The microscope still shows dino’s but it’s also showing significant amounts of other life.

I know this is just the start and long ways to go, but I sure did like the way the tank looked tonight.

So a big thank you to everyone here!

That's great news – thanks for sharing your story!!! Make sure to keep us posted!

 

[Nik Buhl]

Hello everyone. I too have been part of this club for about 6 months now. Hoping someone can i.d. my dinos, so I can establish a better plan of attack. Here is what I got with my $20 microscope. my video would not upload. They seem to have a fast paced, irregular swimming pattern.

 

[kecked]

Just curious. I’ve had a reef tank for over twenty years and never ever even heard of dinos. For that matter I only once had cyano. Has this always been a thing or has this just exploded lately? I must have been increadible lucky it seems. Nothing has changed except I went to ecotech lights and that happened a year back. I added some emerald crabs to eat bubble algae. Speaking of which, there is zero bubble algae now and no sign of an aptasia anywhere. Some benefit from the Dino’s.

Last is there a set of pictures the kind of dinos in one place? I look at the pictures and it all looks the same except one is round and one is tear drop.

 

[fragit]

If your tank is over 20 years old, I’m guessing you started with good quality live rock. The majority of us who have had Dinoflagellates bloom in our tanks started with dead dry rock and didn’t have the benefit of having the biodiversity live rock offers. Dinoflagellates live in oceans round the world and only take over in our systems when conditions are right and there is little to no predation or competition from other algae, bacteria, or animals. This is why we are combating dinos by increasing nutrients and adding biodiversity with things like Garf Grunge, live rock, sludge from rock vats, Miracle Mud, and sand from healthy tanks.

 

[kecked]

My dinos are coolia. Totally round like first pic in 3548. I looked best I could and none of them have any tip or shape other than round. Does that change anything for my treatment?

 

[mcarroll]

@kecked harmful algae in general are becoming more and more common thanks to factors like the increase of international shipping and increasing human coastal presence. Dino's happen to be one of the more common types.

 

[kecked]

I have a very light dust of dinos showing in a second tank. Right now is barely preceptable. What should I do now to stop them getting out of hand? I am raising n and p like the other tank and adding cocapods. This is a few months old tank that I’m rebuilding from a total crash. It’s just a 29gallon. Add a 9w uv?

I have to ID. As I’m guessing it’s dinos. Might be diatoms now I think of it but it’s not on the glass and only on a couple corals and a tiny bit on sand. Had I not had this problem In the other tank I would not have noticed.

Is there a way to actual measure the bacteria diversity in a tank that matters? Thinking like filtering 100 ml of tank water and then counting on a grid or such. Maybe spin down a sample in a little plastic conical on the end of a drill. Mount the cap with a piece of string and a counter weight...yea no. How about mount it on a well balanced board with equal weight and screw that on a piece of threaded rod with washers and nuts. Hold the tubes to the boards with U bolts. Should work. I’d keep the sample weight down and start with 10 ml samples. Do relatively low speed. Take a long time but might work. Would it lyse the cells?

So now you got a centrifuge. Scrape an area of rock to measure surface material.

Take resulting plug and do a grid count? Doubt I’d try it but was fun to think about.