Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Javamahn]

Yes you are right. I’m just impatient. I did add a doser for alk and calcium. They are stable now.
N is stable 5-10ppm. P moves around. Between .1 and .3 changes required dose nearly daily. If I have a Dino bloom it drops. Reeferfoxx don’t get mad at me. I’m human. I cry when I see my tank. So sad.

The uv looks like a possibility and so I try it. I am thankful for everything you’ve shared. Just frustrated.

Hey randy I’m using calcium nitrate to dose nitrate. Same idea as kalk.

Stay strong buddy. We are all in the same battle and have the same thoughts. Just glad folks here have all paved a way for us

 

[HomeSlizzice]

Let's get the complete list of parameters. SG, Temp, N, P, Alk, Ca, Mg, and anything else you have for test kits lol.
Full run down of filtration, water volume, and live vs dry rock or both?
Also a list of things you have tried as well and any other anecdotal methods dumped into the tank? Also how long its been since last treatment. I remember your ID from earlier back.

I know this was geared towards Rev, but here are my system specs, and numbers... I appreciate all the advice and help!

My tank is a Current USA Solana 67XL. So the display is 48""x18"Wx18"T with a pretty open aquascape.

Aquarium Equipment List:
2x AI Hydra 26HD's
36" MRC X Series Sump
Vertex Omega 150 Skimmer
Jebao return pump
Jebao OW-25 for power heads
Media Reactor for Carbon
Carbon and purigen in separate media bags as well. I was running ClearFX Pro, but that was removed 3/15 because it has a phosphate absorbing resin.
Miracle Mud was added 3/5/2018 to a 8"Tx6"W cylinder.
Dosing Unit: jebao DP4
Heater and chiller on rainbird controller keeping the temp at 78*.
Real Reef Rock
Sand
Instant Ocean Salt mix, and I have automated daily 1 gallon water changes done through my dosing pump.
A few months ago I tried to grow chaeto in the sump but it wouldn't grow, and got a slimy algae growth (could have been the Dino's) on it that smother it, so I threw it out.

Test results as of: 3/20/2018
Salinity: 1.025
Temp: 78
pH: 8.4
Ca: 420
Alk: 9.0 dKH
Mg: 1400
Dosing ESV B-Ionic 2 part 12x a day
NO3: 12-16ppm with High Range test
PO4: 0ppm, vial was clear.
No signs of PO4, so I began dosing PO4 today. I dosed 5ml (1 capful) today, and will test tomorrow to see what my levels are at and most likely dose again.

Fish list is:
1x Flame Angel (Centropyge loricula)
1x Potters Angel (Centropyge potteri)
1x Regal Angel (Pygoplites diacanthus)
1x Powder Blue Tang (Acanthurus leucosterno)
1x Royal Gramma (Gramma loreto)
1x Blue Star Leopard Wrasse (Macropharyngodon bipartitus)

All of my fish appear to be doing well, and are still eating aggressively. I also have Maxi Mini Anemones that are doing fine, but all corals are showing signs of stress. My water isn't crystal clear, and I read that Ozone will help with Prorocentrum so I plan on buying one soon.

I will take any and all feedback, advice, etc... Thanks!


- David

 

[janos]

Thank you for the replay i ask because try to filter somehow out,could not figure anything out,try Hydrogen Peroxide working for some level,try to starve the hole tank,started to dose NO3 and PO4. No i try to filter them out.Never had big outbreak,because continuously fight against the Dino.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I know this was geared towards Rev, but here are my system specs, and numbers... I appreciate all the advice and help!

My tank is a Current USA Solana 67XL. So the display is 48""x18"Wx18"T with a pretty open aquascape.

Aquarium Equipment List:
2x AI Hydra 26HD's
36" MRC X Series Sump
Vertex Omega 150 Skimmer
Jebao return pump
Jebao OW-25 for power heads
Media Reactor for Carbon
Carbon and purigen in separate media bags as well. I was running ClearFX Pro, but that was removed 3/15 because it has a phosphate absorbing resin.
Miracle Mud was added 3/5/2018 to a 8"Tx6"W cylinder.
Dosing Unit: jebao DP4
Heater and chiller on rainbird controller keeping the temp at 78*.
Real Reef Rock
Sand
Instant Ocean Salt mix, and I have automated daily 1 gallon water changes done through my dosing pump.
A few months ago I tried to grow chaeto in the sump but it wouldn't grow, and got a slimy algae growth (could have been the Dino's) on it that smother it, so I threw it out.

Test results as of: 3/20/2018
Salinity: 1.025
Temp: 78
pH: 8.4
Ca: 420
Alk: 9.0 dKH
Mg: 1400
Dosing ESV B-Ionic 2 part 12x a day
NO3: 12-16ppm with High Range test
PO4: 0ppm, vial was clear.
No signs of PO4, so I began dosing PO4 today. I dosed 5ml (1 capful) today, and will test tomorrow to see what my levels are at and most likely dose again.

Fish list is:
1x Flame Angel (Centropyge loricula)
1x Potters Angel (Centropyge potteri)
1x Regal Angel (Pygoplites diacanthus)
1x Powder Blue Tang (Acanthurus leucosterno)
1x Royal Gramma (Gramma loreto)
1x Blue Star Leopard Wrasse (Macropharyngodon bipartitus)

All of my fish appear to be doing well, and are still eating aggressively. I also have Maxi Mini Anemones that are doing fine, but all corals are showing signs of stress. My water isn't crystal clear, and I read that Ozone will help with Prorocentrum so I plan on buying one soon.

I will take any and all feedback, advice, etc... Thanks!


- David

Nice work thank you!

Before you jump on Ozone, get your po4 up. Monitor both N and P. Keep the numbers consistent. With your current N number you could let it fall some. P will fall drastically even after dose so it's not uncommon to dose twice a day.

Once dosing becomes stable you'll see Dino's growing more and more. Then it will begin to recess to the point where they aren't visible. Once that happens and you see green algae or cyano growing, you stop dosing nutrients. Let the values drop naturally.

If accessable to you, try to get a few peices of live rock from the LFS. Also, some bottled beneficial bacteria with small doses can help with replenishing any bacteria lost. Dr. Tim's one and only, bio-spira, ATM colony, or any other bacteria that doesn't claim to reduce nutrients. One's to avoid are Dr. Tim's waste away, Microbactor 7, Seachems Stability, Vibrant.

If at that point you see Dino's making a comeback, confirm they are the same strain. If it's a different strain then UV might be a better tool than Ozone.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

Nice work thank you!

Before you jump on Ozone, get your po4 up. Monitor both N and P. Keep the numbers consistent. With your current N number you could let it fall some. P will fall drastically even after dose so it's not uncommon to dose twice a day.

I'll definitely focus on the PO4 over the Ozone, but I'm still strongly considering one for the other benefits Ozone provides.

Once dosing becomes stable you'll see Dino's growing more and more. Then it will begin to recess to the point where they aren't visible. Once that happens and you see green algae or cyano growing, you stop dosing nutrients. Let the values drop naturally.

Good to know, any idea how long it will take for the switch to take place?

If accessable to you, try to get a few peices of live rock from the LFS. Also, some bottled beneficial bacteria with small doses can help with replenishing any bacteria lost. Dr. Tim's one and only, bio-spira, ATM colony, or any other bacteria that doesn't claim to reduce nutrients. One's to avoid are Dr. Tim's waste away, Microbactor 7, Seachems Stability, Vibrant.

I got some thick chunks of Coralline algae and a little bit of sand from my local LFS, and as for Bacteria I have Dr Tim's Ecobalance, Waste Away, and MB7. I'll only do some additions of Ecobalance every few days.

If at that point you see Dino's making a comeback, confirm they are the same strain. If it's a different strain then UV might be a better tool than Ozone.

Yeah I'll hold onto my little microscope, but I'm hoping I don't get any more Dino's. I'll keep UV in mind as an option for sure.



Thank you again @reeferfoxx

P.S. based on the photos I provided, would it also appear to be Prorocentrum to you as well?

 

[Samina]

Fair warning: this is a vent and possible long rant. I just want to say that I want to cry. I loved my tank and its inhabitants. But it just looks disgusting now. I have spent so much time and so much money on it and everything was looking great until this issue. I loved just watching the life and everything in the tank and now I can’t even see things with the layer of gunk growing all over. I have all sorts of nasty crud growing on everything. It makes me want to tear it all down and restart. But I can’t do that. I am still waiting for my UV that I ordered and hope it will help. This outbreak is just disheartening. The constant siphoning and blowing off the rocks and coral and sand only to have it grow back within a couple hours [emoji31]I am still dosing nitrates but nothing seems to be improving. I just want to scream. Today is a rough day for me in this fight. I just want my tank back.

 

[Bob Lauson]

My dosing of PO4 to raise the levels and to keep my nitrates up didn’t do a whole lot until I put the UV Sterilizer in the display tank. I hated looking at my tank for months, blowing off the rocks, siphoning out sand, seeing Dino’s always grow back as if I did no maintenance whatsoever. The UV Sterilizer worked within a 24 hour period. It was awesome. I had ostreopsis and they apparently all floated happily to their demise in the sterilizer.

 

[Deezill]

My dosing of PO4 to raise the levels and to keep my nitrates up didn’t do a whole lot until I put the UV Sterilizer in the display tank. I hated looking at my tank for months, blowing off the rocks, siphoning out sand, seeing Dino’s always grow back as if I did no maintenance whatsoever. The UV Sterilizer worked within a 24 hour period. It was awesome. I had ostreopsis and they apparently all floated happily to their demise in the sterilizer.

Maybe I should try a UV sterilizer. Can you link yours? I need one for a 150g. Thanks.

 

[Bob Lauson]

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/emperor-aquatics-smart-uv-40-watt.html

 

[Bob Lauson]

Here is how I set it up in my display tank for the time being.

 

[Dogtown]

You would be amazed at what a little bit of ozone does to eliminate dinos. I started in this hobby back in 2011 and used to deal with dinos all the time. After 5 years or so I got a cheap ozone generator to improve water clarity. I started running it on the lowest setting and only at night. The water cleared up overnight and the dinos quickly disappeared as well. Dinos haven’t returned since. Ozone makes reefing easy, as does UV.

 

[TRock]

You should be dosing Phosphorus as well.
@Samina

 

[Samina]

You should be dosing Phosphorus as well.
@Samina

Thanks. My phosphate seems to be holding a decent level, which is why I haven’t dosed it. Has not bottomed out ever. Last week, it averaged .11ppm and this week looks like it’s close to that mark, maybe a tad less. Nitrate on the other hand, has continually bottomed out. I check both everyday [emoji52] maybe a bit overkill. But anyhow, I haven’t increased KNO3 dosage. I just redose and am waiting to see when the test results show that it’s holding. Aiming for 3-4ppm at the moment.

 

[TRock]

Thanks. My phosphate seems to be holding a decent level, which is why I haven’t dosed it. Has not bottomed out ever. Last week, it averaged .11ppm and this week looks like it’s close to that mark, maybe a tad less. Nitrate on the other hand, has continually bottomed out. I check both everyday [emoji52] maybe a bit overkill. But anyhow, I haven’t increased KNO3 dosage. I just redose and am waiting to see when the test results show that it’s holding. Aiming for 3-4ppm at the moment.

This is very odd. My system is thirsty for phosphates and I'm battling Dino. No problem keeping nitrates up with very limited dosing. I run keto refugium, and have a very small bioload.
I almost have my Dino problem fixed. But the different nutrient requirement leads me to believe that our systems are very different and may require A very different approach to handling dinoflagellates?

Just a thought.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Fair warning: this is a vent and possible long rant. I just want to say that I want to cry. I loved my tank and its inhabitants. But it just looks disgusting now. I have spent so much time and so much money on it and everything was looking great until this issue. I loved just watching the life and everything in the tank and now I can’t even see things with the layer of gunk growing all over. I have all sorts of nasty crud growing on everything. It makes me want to tear it all down and restart. But I can’t do that. I am still waiting for my UV that I ordered and hope it will help. This outbreak is just disheartening. The constant siphoning and blowing off the rocks and coral and sand only to have it grow back within a couple hours

I am still dosing nitrates but nothing seems to be improving. I just want to scream. Today is a rough day for me in this fight. I just want my tank back.

Let it out just don't go office space on the tank! We've been there.

Go through this list. Ignore the ones you've already done.

Just recap for newcomers...

Things to focus on when thinking you have dinos.

1. ID your dinos. $12 microscope from Amazon will help. $80 microscope will help more.
2. Check your nutrients. If N or P are very low dose to no3 = 10 and po4 = 0.08-0.10ppm
3. If nutrients are limited remove any bio media(bio-pellets, nitrate reducers) or chemical media(GFO, or aluminum based po4 removers), might even remove the ATS or refugium if it's not performing due to low nutrients.
4. Nitrates can be potassium nitrate(Hardware store Stump Remover but not limited to) or Sodium Nitrate(Amazon)
5. Phosphates can be potassium phosphate(Seachem phosphorus but not limited to Seachem)
6. Run GAC or granulated activated carbon.
7. Don't over feed fish and coral
8. Think of ways to replenish biodiversity and microbial diversity. Garf Grunge, Fiji Mud, Live Rock.
9. Make sure you have extra test kits. You'll be testing on the daily.
10. Research UV sterilizer. One of the best tools to help rid your tank.

Things you DON'T need to do.

1. Reduce lighting in any way.
2. Dose chemicals.
3. Dose nutrient reducers.
4. Magical bottles of wasted dollars.
5. Black outs.
6. pH increases.
7. GFO
8. Temperature adjustments
9. Freak out
10. Start over

Here is a few progression shots from my outbreak.

This was June 22nd

This was July 5th

Today July 14th

It didn't take much longer after this before I thought I was dino free. Going back through the posts I found that I was dino free for 6 weeks. But that was short lived when another strain of dino popped up. That was okay though because green hair algae and cyano were growing. At that point I just let nutrients fall naturally without pushing big water changes. In fact I didnt do a water change for a month. Not to say that will work for you but its something I did while closely keeping an eye on fish. You'll see here the GHA and dino then it all goes away. 30 days apart.

Look at it now!

It's all repairable. Just need patience.

Heres the tank today.



The tank itself has taken a beating. At this point it's been almost a year since the first Dino's outbreak. I consider the day I was completely free of all Dino's, the start or birth of this tank. The tank itself is well over 2 years old but it's now just months old.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

You would be amazed at what a little bit of ozone does to eliminate dinos. I started in this hobby back in 2011 and used to deal with dinos all the time. After 5 years or so I got a cheap ozone generator to improve water clarity. I started running it on the lowest setting and only at night. The water cleared up overnight and the dinos quickly disappeared as well. Dinos haven’t returned since. Ozone makes reefing easy, as does UV.

I was going to pick up an Ozone unit tomorrow, how many Mg/hr do you run and for how long? I was gonna get the Aquamaxx Tech 03 and run it for about 6 hours at night (broken into 30 minute time frames, so 12 x 30 minute runs) to start.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Before you guys jump on the ozone train, check out these articles and information from RHF.

Ozone, O3, is a highly oxidizing form of oxygen that is added to either a special reactor or sometimes a skimmer where it reacts with organic materials. It quickly makes them less yellow, and can slowly break them down. It can also react with organism tissues, which is why it isn't preferred to add to a skimmer or other way that doesn't pass the effluent over GAC (which breaks the ozone down).

These have a ton more:

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1: Chemistry and Biochemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 2: Equipment and Safety by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/rhf/index.php

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 3: Changes in a Reef Aquarium upon Initiating Ozone by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-05/rhf/index.php

Thanks.

I do not doubt you can kill dinos, but I think it is not dissimilar to dosing bleach to kill dinos (in fact, the active chemicals may be largely the same).

Either might be a decent choice in desperation, but I would not assume it is harmless to everything else in the tank.

What is the likelihood that dinos are the easiest to kill organism in an entire reef system?

That said, the other things that are harmed may be not that important to reefers who already have a tank covered in dinos and may be losing corals and such that are covered.

Ozone will quickly break down to form other oxidants in seawater, such as hypobromite (BrO-), which are toxins. Bleach does that as well. The papers I have seen suggest that hydrogen peroxide is not a strong enough oxidant to convert bromide to hypobromite (or at least, it doesn't form).

 

[Dogtown]

I was going to pick up an Ozone unit tomorrow, how many Mg/hr do you run and for how long? I was gonna get the Aquamaxx Tech 03 and run it for about 6 hours at night (broken into 30 minute time frames, so 12 x 30 minute runs) to start.

I have 160 gallons of water in my system and it is heavily stocked. I run an Ozotech Poseidon 200, which is capable of producing up to 200mg/hr. I have it dialed all the way down, which nets about 40mg/hr. It runs from 11:00 pm to 7:00 am continuously.

 

[Robinson]

DinoX is back in stock on BulkReefSupply, I know that some may not have success with this but I saw a few others that were able to get rid of Dino with this.

 

[Dogtown]

Before you guys jump on the ozone train, check out these articles and information from RHF.

You have to remember that RHF is just one person who used to run just one average tank back he had one. He doesn’t even keep a tank any more. I do recommend that everyone read up and do their homework. Ozone and UV are quietly used by some of the best in the hobby for a reason. Ozone is also used in commercial and home air conditioning systems quite safely. Commercial fisheries and commercial facilities such as Marine Land won’t run without them. Like anything else, it’s all about avoiding extremes and doing your homework. To act in a derogatory manner with a train comment about a credible method does no one any good. If you must, we can’t stop you.