Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Bebow]

I don't think it's been more than a month since I recall them starting.

My experiment with Si began in January, by middle of February it appeared to be successful but was short lived. Dino’s are back with diatoms. I may have allowed my N and P get a little to high though. N 25ppm and P .5 ppm. I’m guessing there’s a sweet spot of N 5ppm and P .02 ppm?? Maybe my levels are high enough to support both??
My video today is several post up the page.

 

[kinetic]

Update on my dino battle:
1. I was stubborn and never wanted to get a microscope. Decided to just treat for any type of dino and hope for the best.
2. I first just tried chemiclean, just in case it was cyano. Didn't work. I tried it twice. I'm pretty sure it's not cyano, I've battled it before. Looks just like the dino photos. My flow is crazy, etc etc.
3. I then realized I could not detect any PO4/NO3. 5x my feeding, dosed aminos, dropped a ridiculous amount of frozen cubes of mysis in, still nothing. Dinos exploded in growth (I guess all the NO3/PO4 was feeding dinos).
4. I stopped throwing food in, and straight dosed PO4/NO3 with lab grade sodium nitrate and sodium phosphate. It worked to get the levels to where I wanted, but the dinos still flourished. Killed all SPS except for the cockroach bubblegum digitata, amazing it lived through all of that. I had about 1/2" mat of dinos I was removing every two days.
5. I went out of town, decided to stop dosing. Came back and it was about the same amount of dinos. All levels dropped. Then I started DinoX.
6. DinoX helped a little, algae in my tank turned white, and some dinos died, but would grow back quickly. Then someone suggested that since my tank leans so far towards low nutrient, maybe I should just starve them out. That's when I turned to NoPox.
7. This is probably month 3 of fighting it. I was dosing NoPox daily, DinoX every other day, and what do you know, dinos start going away. At this point I listened to the voices of reason that is R2R community, and bought a microscrope. At the same time, I decided to stop doing water changes every 2 days to remove dinos, so I had enough dinos to look at under a scope
8. Well, I got my microscope, and I could never get any dinos. They went away. Also, there is no algae in my tank.

Here's what I think happened:
1. I was probably using DinoX wrong for awhile. I kept doing manual removal using siphoning out 20% of water, and then replenishing with newly mixed water. When I stopped doing that for about 17 days, I think the DinoX slowly killed off dinos, but also got so concentrated that new dinos couldn't grow back.
2. The NoPox started building up quite the population of bacteria in the water column (I think that's what it does), and that actually outcompeted the dinos all at the same time.

As soon as I did a 20% water change, the next day I saw a tiny bit of dino come back. (my water is RO/DI water, tested 0TDS with multiple tests, and 0 P and 0 N).

I know, if I stop dosing NoPox, dinos probably will come back. But it beats dosing N/P manually and not having any good results. I'm happy I haven't had to use the microscope, but now I may never know.

All of this, of course, could be some huge coincidence with something else. But I don't think it is.

For those battling dinos constantly because of low N and P, trying to outcompete using NoPox or some other carbon source might be a good path. I have pretty high hopes now! I'll update again in a few weeks.

 

[tonymacc]

For those battling dinos constantly because of low N and P, trying to outcompete using NoPox or some other carbon source might be a good path. I have pretty high hopes now! I'll update again in a few weeks.

Isn't carbon dosing (nopox) going to take the nutrients out not put in, or am I missing something here? My low n and p is down to my use of nopox stripping them out and hitting zero.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's more of an experimental approach. Many researchers were unable to grow amphidinium with f/2 medium without removing silicates prior. Although, I've seen that with or species of dino as well. It more or less is a 'what if?' situation.

OK, thanks.

 

[mcarroll]

I’m guessing there’s a sweet spot of N 5ppm and P .02 ppm??

It's hard to say "what went wrong" since it was so much theory and hope....it's very possible it just doesn't work, or doesn't work like we think.

It was worth a shot, regardless! And if you have the capacity to keep testing, maybe you'll still figure something out.

The sweet spots we recomend for nutrients are related to dino suppression and the levels are minimum levels, not maximums – as far as we've seen there doesn't seem to (generally) be any problem with higher levels.

 

[janos]

Hi to all,just a small note here,keep my NO3 @50 and PO4 @0.3 not a big difference.Dino is less and less,but i try everything what i read here.

 

[mcarroll]

@janos Establishing positive nutrients is the first step, but it's not always the last one.

Were you able to identify which dino's you have?

How old is your tank?

What do you do to manage nutrients in the tank? (If anything.)

 

[janos]

Thank you for your replay,never identify Dino with Microscope,tank is one year old,all my hard coral slowly died softy is ok,nutrient is come from food and extra add NO3 and PO4.

 

[shred5]

I posted this in another thread.


I have been in the hobby a very long time so timeline might be a little off, I just do not remember anymore exact timeline.. I never had dinos till I would say about the mid 90's or so, I started the reef hobby mid upper 80's. when I started in the hobby we grew caulerpa in the reefs to help with nutrients.

Everyone in the area I lived had Dinos and the fish stores, those who did not had other algae issues. I had them really bad and was working with John Tullock and Bob Goemens. I was also on fishnet and worked a little with Julian Sprung, he even put some of it in a book. Some of the methods used now a days came from that.. Anyway they did not appear till I added my first venturi skimmer and phosphate removing compounds. Well the the consensus at the time was needed to choke them with lower nutrients.. So more water changes, added di more phosphate removing compounds etc. Well they just kept getting worse and worse. I was actually getting everything for free from a LFS who had them really bad so it didnt cost me anything.

I then setup a bunch of brood stock tanks to breed clowns and in these tanks I grew caulerpa to help with nutrients because I fed them heavy. These tanks never developed dinos so I started to think why is this? then it hit me higher nutrients allowed the algae to out compete dinos. Plus it was reinforced by two things, I never had them with caulerpa growing in my reef and everyone who did not have them had other algae issues. So I added a fuge with caulerpa and they went away in weeks. Amazing.. Then I never had to deal with them for a long time till dead rock came along.

Well later on I set up a all in one reef because of work and my company and I was just to busy for a full reef. This tank was set up with dead rock and no issues. That tank was fine with no fuge but I really was not keeping nutrient real low. Well I went to set up a larger tank after I moved that my girlfriend bought me. I set this up with dead rock and I had cycled it like the last dead rock I had no issue with, I also gave the rock a bleach and vinegar bath. OMG this had dinos for 6 months from phosphate leaching from the rock. I finally pulled the rock and went with live rock and no issues. I did not use a fuge but did not strive for super low nutrients.

I did have another out break on another tank with dead rock..

I have wrote several super long post in the past on fighting dinos and was asked to do a book once.

The conclusion is not striving for super low nutrient and adding algae to compete is the way to go to rid dinos. Now you still want low nutrient but just enough to have green algae grow.. It has never failed me.
Since it was a problem mainly in my area at the time we also concluded it was something in the water possibly to much iron.. I had suggested people try a metal removing media and some have had success with this too..

I also think it is such a problem now a days because of dead rock having so much bound stuff like metals and phosphate. I just think it takes allot of time for some of this rock to unbind all of this garbage and build up some biodiversity to compete with dino's. This rock is causing cyano and dino issues. On the other side those that buy good equipment that is so efficient we are getting lower nutrients and dinos can compete better for what ever it needs at these levels.

I will say blackouts do not work.. Like allot of algae it can leave spores and creep up again when conditions are right.

All I can say is I have not had a dino problem other than cycling and using dead rock in like 20 years.

 

[mcarroll]

@shred5 thanks for posting your experience! Sounds like yours has been pretty consistent with the experiences we've racked up on this thread in the last couple years! I guess it's nice to know the dino's don't change even if the hobby does.

 

[reeferfoxx]

@shred5 thanks for posting your experience! Sounds like yours has been pretty consistent with the experiences we've racked up on this thread in the last couple years! I guess it's nice to know the dino's don't change even if the hobby does.

I just wish the hobby wouldn't have to constantly dose nutrients. Yes we can over feed or under feed and yes we can say over feeding is bad, but to add macros only to tend to it with bottles of nutrients? I'm getting lost here. Dry rock= Dino's. Then we are told it's pointless to reboot because Dino's are everywhere. This whole process of too much and too little with a side of supplementation is becoming way to convoluted. Let's add live rock and increase biodiversity but besides doing all that any other disturbances could cause a rebloom? Where does it stop?

 

[shred5]

I just wish the hobby wouldn't have to constantly dose nutrients. Yes we can over feed or under feed and yes we can say over feeding is bad, but to add macros only to tend to it with bottles of nutrients? I'm getting lost here. Dry rock= Dino's. Then we are told it's pointless to reboot because Dino's are everywhere. This whole process of too much and too little with a side of supplementation is becoming way to convoluted. Let's add live rock and increase biodiversity but besides doing all that any other disturbances could cause a rebloom? Where does it stop?

I do not think having low nutrients causes dino's it is something else. I think low nutrients provides the conditions for it to thrive but is not the cause because to many people run low nutrients with no issues. What ever it is though it seems green algae can compete against dino's for it. What that something is I do not know. The problem is green algae can not grow in low nutrients so it is a balance for those who have dinos issues.

It might be some metal which explains some have used metal removing compounds and had success.. Randy kind of mentioned something like this earlier.

I do not think we need bottles I have never used them, I have not dosed anything... I just feed normally and have a decent amount of fish, i just do not strive for zero anymore.... It does not take much to grow cheato.

I like a little challenge, I like tinkering with biology and learning. No one said this hobby was going to be easy... I have pretty much learned how to control algae to the point I rid my tank of bryopsis and dictyota normaly with out dosing anything.

I did hate dino's back then when it was so thick on the surface I could net it and it persisted for years. I do not know how many times I almost quit.. I had dreams about the stuff.

 

[lbacha]

I do not think having low nutrients causes dino's it is something else. I think low nutrients provides the conditions for it to thrive but is not the cause because to many people run low nutrients with no issues. What ever it is though it seems green algae can compete against dino's for it. What that something is I do not know. The problem is green algae can not grow in low nutrients so it is a balance for those who have dinos issues.

It might be some metal which explains some have used metal removing compounds and had success.. Randy kind of mentioned something like this earlier.

There is a difference between low nutrients and out of balance nutrients. Most of the nuisance algaes out there thrive in out of balance conditions as they are better at using a single nutrient without others. All your multicellular algaes need a balance of No3, PO4 and K along with sufficient CO2 to grow well. If any of those things are out of balance then you get the bad/ugly organisms thriving. I'm not sure what nutrient or trace element make Dino's bloom but my guess is in a balanced system (even one with extremely low nutrients like the ocean) desirable algae including coralline and zooxanthellae outcompete the Dino's for it.

 

[shred5]

I do not think having low nutrients causes dino's it is something else. I think low nutrients provides the conditions for it to thrive but is not the cause because to many people run low nutrients with no issues. What ever it is though it seems green algae can compete against dino's for it. What that something is I do not know. The problem is green algae can not grow in low nutrients so it is a balance for those who have dinos issues.

It might be some metal which explains some have used metal removing compounds and had success.. Randy kind of mentioned something like this earlier.

I do not think we need bottles I have never used them, I have not dosed anything... I just feed normally and have a decent amount of fish, i just do not strive for zero anymore.... It does not take much to grow cheato.

I like a little challenge, I like tinkering with biology and learning. No one said this hobby was going to be easy... I have pretty much learned how to control algae to the point I rid my tank of bryopsis and dictyota normaly with out dosing anything.

I did hate dino's back then when it was so thick on the surface I could net it and it persisted for years. I do not know how many times I almost quit.. I had dreams about the stuff.

When I said above I do not dose anything I meant to rid myself of dino's.. I do dose calcium/alk/mag but I meant to rid dinos.

 

[kinetic]

Isn't carbon dosing (nopox) going to take the nutrients out not put in, or am I missing something here? My low n and p is down to my use of nopox stripping them out and hitting zero.

Yes, that's the idea. My theory was that the NoPox addition is taking nutrients out before the dinos can consume them. Less food + DinoX seems to have worked for me.

This may be very specific to how my system runs (not really sure what makes it do that). It's already pretty low, with no dosing of a carbon source which is why I probably got dinos in the first place. Increasing n/p never worked for me, and made it worse. Using Nopox to strip nutrients out has almost completely removed all dinos for a couple weeks now.

 

[tonymacc]

Ostreopsis are a cyst forming dinoflagellates. Most likely what you are seeing now is a result of the cysts "hatching". I would start with examining what conditions have changed since the last time they receded. Then try to match the conditions that caused them to recede the first time. I also agree with @reeferfoxx on the UV. A properly sized UV really helps with Ostreopsis. As far as sizing, shoot for 0.5 watts per gallon.

55w Jabao overkill for 170 litre?
Struggling to find what wattage is best and what flow rate, is it worth putting that info in the front page @mcarroll @reeferfoxx

 

[Bebow]

It's hard to say "what went wrong" since it was so much theory and hope....it's very possible it just doesn't work, or doesn't work like we think.

It was worth a shot, regardless! And if you have the capacity to keep testing, maybe you'll still figure something out.

The sweet spots we recomend for nutrients are related to dino suppression and the levels are minimum levels, not maximums – as far as we've seen there doesn't seem to (generally) be any problem with higher levels.

I’m at a loss as to why the Dino’s keep coming back. I thought my higher levels would not bring on there return. It’s not the thick snotty mess that I had but I can see the difference in color, golden brown for diatoms then darker brown in the Dino concentrated areas. If I keep the Si up around 3ppm I have diatoms, when it drops below 1 ppm I get a mix. Still no algae or cyano.

 

[Jolanta]

55w Jabao overkill for 170 litre?
Struggling to find what wattage is best and what flow rate, is it worth putting that info in the front page @mcarroll @reeferfoxx

I used 55 on my 120 nano and it worked great.

 

[kecked]

Well dinos return. Here is something interesting. I have two tanks right next to each other. The only difference is a uv unit on the big tank. Yesterday at the end of day both tanks looked pretty free of dinos. End of today outbreak in both tanks. I didn’t do anything to either tank. What could have set them off? The only thing that happened was a warm Front followed by a cold front. The temp and pressure had a large swing. Dry windy. My house is tempstable so only pressure could have changed. Just mentioning it not saying related. A data point..... no parameter changes were noted in either tank. Who knows.

Can I culture diatoms from freshwater to add life to my tank?

Last I noticed the layer of dinos on the wall of my overflow glow red in blue light. I’m trying to get time on a confocal microscope to show some really high quality images of dinos. Well coolia at least.

 

[tonymacc]

I used 55 on my 120 nano and it worked great.

Was that 1800L per hour?