Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[m0jjen]

Y'all both have the blurry, tiny, out of focus kind. Lol.
The video sped up the motion, I think.
From it I would say either amphidinium or prorocentrum. Distinguishing between the two may be easier with tank shot and observing for toxins.
Stringier, and more toxic suggests prorocentrum.

cheap digital microscope so cant get much better focus. The clip is not sped up at all. Fast little buggers.

What i know so far:

* Nutrients took a dive when rescaping 0/0, been dosing
* Skimmer working and i get ALOT of really dense skimmate (havent happened earlier since i have a bubble king SM200 which is way oversized for a 750 litre system)
* Tank smells, not sulphur but lite toxic algae or something. Really intens smell
* UV has given a good result in just two days
* Hairalgae is also present
* Kills SPS quite fast. Lost a colony that got attacked in mather of days
* Ph has gone up alot. from a daily swing of 8.0 - 8.3 to 8.1 - 8.5
* Really agressive and has even attatched it self on my sandshifting sea star

 

[Fritzhamer]

Thanks, mine are super long and stringy on the walls and make large sheets on the rocks. I believe they also killed my urchin and most of my snails. So guessing prorocentrum in my case.

 

[Fritzhamer]

cheap digital microscope so cant get much better focus. The clip is not sped up at all. Fast little buggers.

What i know so far:

* Nutrients took a dive when rescaping 0/0, been dosing
* Skimmer working and i get ALOT of really dense skimmate (havent happened earlier since i have a bubble king SM200 which is way oversized for a 750 litre system)
* Tank smells, not sulphur but lite toxic algae or something. Really intens smell
* UV has given a good result in just two days
* Hairalgae is also present
* Kills SPS quite fast. Lost a colony that got attacked in mather of days
* Ph has gone up alot. from a daily swing of 8.0 - 8.3 to 8.1 - 8.5
* Really agressive and has even attatched it self on my sandshifting sea star

Lol, I bought the same crappy microscope. I too have experienced what you describe.

 

[saltyhog]

I removed my UV about a month ago after a great success treating for Ostreopsis. Everything has done well until the last week. Suddenly, all of my SPS are stressed. I don't see anything on the rock to sample except for some small areas of cyano. Nothing really visible on the sand. The only visible change is the biofilm on the glass is much more prolific lately. Here's a video of a sample of it.

I think I see a couple of immobile Ostreopsis, quite a bit of diatoms. There are also all those crazy fast little guys that are the predominant organism. However, there are some round guys bigger than the fast guys but much smaller than the Ostreopsis. Is that Coolia?

 

[taricha]

cheap digital microscope so cant get much better focus. The clip is not sped up at all. Fast little buggers.

What i know so far:

* Nutrients took a dive when rescaping 0/0, been dosing
* Skimmer working and i get ALOT of really dense skimmate (havent happened earlier since i have a bubble king SM200 which is way oversized for a 750 litre system)
* Tank smells, not sulphur but lite toxic algae or something. Really intens smell
* UV has given a good result in just two days
* Hairalgae is also present
* Kills SPS quite fast. Lost a colony that got attacked in mather of days
* Ph has gone up alot. from a daily swing of 8.0 - 8.3 to 8.1 - 8.5
* Really agressive and has even attatched it self on my sandshifting sea star

With additional details, This sounds more and more like small cell amphidinium. They are the fastest moving of our problem dinos. And although large cell amphidinium are low toxin, smal cell types are more closely associated with toxins.
edit: that's a good picture. pretty well confirms the ID.

 

[taricha]

Thanks, mine are super long and stringy on the walls and make large sheets on the rocks. I believe they also killed my urchin and most of my snails. So guessing prorocentrum in my case.

You have multiple types - looks like small cell amphidinium plus some larger cells that could be any of the major ones. If you can shoot a video - that'll help. Run UV, get rid of the ones that UV can target (the stringier and higher in the tank they go - the more susceptible to UV), and lets narrow the playing field.

 

[taricha]

I removed my UV about a month ago after a great success treating for Ostreopsis. Everything has done well until the last week. Suddenly, all of my SPS are stressed. I don't see anything on the rock to sample except for some small areas of cyano. Nothing really visible on the sand. The only visible change is the biofilm on the glass is much more prolific lately. Here's a video of a sample of it.

I think I see a couple of immobile Ostreopsis, quite a bit of diatoms. There are also all those crazy fast little guys that are the predominant organism. However, there are some round guys bigger than the fast guys but much smaller than the Ostreopsis. Is that Coolia?

Great video. there might be 10 different protists in there.
The smallest guys are - I believe - tiny ciliates that I can routinely find in skimmate. The larger pigmented swimming spinning guys look like euglena to me. one of them near the center left of the shot changes body shape a few times between 0:05 and 0:12 seconds.
Correct on the ostreopsis and diatoms. I can't tell what the other round pigmented cells are. But too small to be coolia.
I'd run UV, and a filter floss in high flow to grab as many dinos out of the water that stick to high flow surfaces.
And overall it looks like you have a lot of tiny predators that are responding to a food source somewhere. Normally I would say that video looks like an awesome community, but you have seen stress in corals, so I'd intervene.

I don't know how all our tanks know it's spring, but I think a lot of tanks out there are experiencing the "spring phytoplankton bloom." Mine does and it knows it's spring because It gets natural light and skimmer pulls outside air, so tank temp ticks up a bit.

 

[saltyhog]

Thanks @taricha ! I'm setting my UV back up this afternoon. I knew it was too good to be true....LOL!

 

[Ernie C]

Thanks @taricha ! I'm setting my UV back up this afternoon. I knew it was too good to be true....LOL!

I still have my Jebao bazooka hooked up and I haven’t seen Dino’s making a come back. Knock on wood!!!!!!! It’s an eye sore for now but I think it’s doing the trick. Maybe once I’m sure I have enough diversity to keep them away naturally I’ll remove it but maybe then I may consider a smaller one for the sump.

 

[saltyhog]

I still have my Jebao bazooka hooked up and I haven’t seen Dino’s making a come back. Knock on wood!!!!!!! It’s an eye sore for now but I think it’s doing the trick. Maybe once I’m sure I have enough diversity to keep them away naturally I’ll remove it but maybe then I may consider a smaller one for the sump.

I thought I had them licked. I had been running UV for 2 months with no sign of dinos since the 2nd day of running UV. 10 days later my corals started to go south. Guess I will be looking for a smaller UV to set up permanently.

 

[NMreef]

Thanks! This sample is from the live rock, although the same stuff is on the sand. Both pics are of the brown stringy stuff. It likes high flow and high PAR, so it grows more quickly high on the rock.

I have Hawaiian Black Sand. Do you think that is fueling the silica for the diatoms?

I lost all my snails to the first species of Dinos who ate it and died. Since this is mostly diatoms, I think I should go ahead and add some CUC and see if they eat it and survive. Does that sound good?

So I got my second of two Triton tests back (separated by two months time). The first test showed high (red zone) Vanadium. I was interested if this level was increasing, stable, or decreasing. Well it turns out it has doubled between tests. In addition, Nickel is now red zone and Barium and Iron are now orange. Aluminum and Silica are green, but increasing. This is likely what is killing my inverts and not the Dinos. At least it is not helping. I now think I would not have had any bloom to start if I could have kept a decent CUC to keep things in check in the first place.

My goal now is to decrease the toxic metal levels by taking the black sand out and doing water changes. What a pain.

1. What kind of fresh hell am I in for by doing a series of water changes in the presence of Dinos in the tank?
2. Should I go bare bottom for while (or maybe permanently) or replace with white sand immediately?
3. What are some good tools for removing the sand? A siphon will work, but it will be slow going because of a high water/rock ratio coming out.

 

[dwest]

I thought I had them licked. I had been running UV for 2 months with no sign of dinos since the 2nd day of running UV. 10 days later my corals started to go south. Guess I will be looking for a smaller UV to set up permanently.

Sorry about this... I am using a 57 watt aqua uv plumbed so it’s hung off the back. The only thing I see in the tank is my mj1200 in the corner. Relatively unobtrusive. Good luck.

 

[dwest]

So I got my second of two Triton tests back (separated by two months time). The first test showed high (red zone) Vanadium. I was interested if this level was increasing, stable, or decreasing. Well it turns out it has doubled between tests. In addition, Nickel is now red zone and Barium and Iron are now orange. Aluminum and Silica are green, but increasing. This is likely what is killing my inverts and not the Dinos. At least it is not helping. I now think I would not have had any bloom to start if I could have kept a decent CUC to keep things in check in the first place.

My goal now is to decrease the toxic metal levels by taking the black sand out and doing water changes. What a pain.

1. What kind of fresh hell am I in for by doing a series of water changes in the presence of Dinos in the tank?
2. Should I go bare bottom for while (or maybe permanently) or replace with white sand immediately?
3. What are some good tools for removing the sand? A siphon will work, but it will be slow going because of a high water/rock ratio coming out.

Hmmm. I’ve seen a thread to 2 about the black sand. I’m guessing you have found them. If you do remove sand, I don’t know of a better way than a hose. I removed my sand because of dinos. Yep, it’s a pain, but you’ll eventually get it.

Water changes with dinos is certainty debatable. It didn’t matter if I did them or not, so I personally would do them when I am siphoning sand. And, since you asked, I would run BB for a while. Taricha, once suggested that I might put sand in my sump to make it “live” before I ever add it to my display.

I would also be running GAC for dino toxins, and maybe even cuprisorb or metasorb for the metals until the sand is gone.

I don't recall you type of dinos you have but have you tried UV to help? It won’t help with amphidinium, but will help with others if used correctly. Good luck!

 

[NMreef]

Hmmm. I’ve seen a thread to 2 about the black sand. I’m guessing you have found them. If you do remove sand, I don’t know of a better way than a hose. I removed my sand because of dinos. Yep, it’s a pain, but you’ll eventually get it.

Water changes with dinos is certainty debatable. It didn’t matter if I did them or not, so I personally would do them when I am siphoning sand. And, since you asked, I would run BB for a while. Taricha, once suggested that I might put sand in my sump to make it “live” before I ever add it to my display.

I would also be running GAC for dino toxins, and maybe even cuprisorb or metasorb for the metals until the sand is gone.

I don't recall you type of dinos you have but have you tried UV to help? It won’t help with amphidinium, but will help with others if used correctly. Good luck!

I have a ton of diatoms with some Dinos mixed in. Probably 90/10 in biomass. Not exactly sure what the Dino species is, but probably a mix small cell Amphidinium and another similar species. Some move in small circles, some are fast as heck and swim around. Probably not large cell Amphidinium since the preferred growth spot is high in the rock structure, not sand.

I have some Poly-Filter, which absorbs metals, but I have not been using it since it also absorbs phosphates, which I have to dose to keep above zero. Metasorb does not list Vanadium or Barium as metals it removes, but might be worth it anyways as Triton does not test for everything.

Been avoiding UV just for cost and ugliness factor. We will see how the sand removal goes before I do that route.

 

[Paullawr]

Great video. there might be 10 different protists in there.
The smallest guys are - I believe - tiny ciliates that I can routinely find in skimmate. The larger pigmented swimming spinning guys look like euglena to me. one of them near the center left of the shot changes body shape a few times between 0:05 and 0:12 seconds.
Correct on the ostreopsis and diatoms. I can't tell what the other round pigmented cells are. But too small to be coolia.
I'd run UV, and a filter floss in high flow to grab as many dinos out of the water that stick to high flow surfaces.
And overall it looks like you have a lot of tiny predators that are responding to a food source somewhere. Normally I would say that video looks like an awesome community, but you have seen stress in corals, so I'd intervene.

I don't know how all our tanks know it's spring, but I think a lot of tanks out there are experiencing the "spring phytoplankton bloom." Mine does and it knows it's spring because It gets natural light and skimmer pulls outside air, so tank temp ticks up a bit.

They are seasonal. Naturally warmer air. Ive always wanted to confirm if people running chillers are less likely to experience a bloom.
Just another tick for stability hey.

 

[Wxguy23]

After a month of elevated nitrate, this past Saturday and no change...if not worse, I started the “Dr Tim’s” method.

Waste away, skimmer off, vodka..etc.
day 3. Killed 5 fish including my large yellow tang who’s barely alive. Now a decent white cloud in the tank.

Battling Dino and Cyno has been the devil for 4mo.

Suggestions on starting over. How?

 

[OpenOcean33]

After a month of elevated nitrate, this past Saturday and no change...if not worse, I started the “Dr Tim’s” method.

Waste away, skimmer off, vodka..etc.
day 3. Killed 5 fish including my large yellow tang.

Battling Dino and Cyno has been the devil.

Suggestions on starting over. How?

What type of Dinos are you battling?

 

[Wxguy23]

What type of Dinos are you battling?

amphidinium & Cyno

 

[OpenOcean33]

amphidinium & Cyno

Is it just on the sand bed ? Also the cyano is a good competitor but eventually you will also want to get ridnof that down the road but it's much easier. But silicate dosing would be a great option if the dinos are on the sand bed as many have has success with this method.

 

[Wxguy23]

Is it just on the sand bed ? Also the cyano is a good competitor but eventually you will also want to get ridnof that down the road but it's much easier. But silicate dosing would be a great option if the dinos are on the sand bed as many have has success with this method.

Rocks and sand bed.

Seems I’m having a bacteria bloom. White cloud.

Should I stop this recommended method? Or see it through?