Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[ScottB]

I have a curiosity!
what are the daily consumptions of PO4 and NO3 in your tanks?

I'm starting to calculate them, for now it seems to me 0.12 ppm of PO4 and 5 ppm of NO3 day

You? how many ppm / day?

why do you think my tank consumes so many?
@taricha @ScottB

It is easy to measure how much PO4 we are dosing, but harder to measure what is introduced via fish/coral foods.

On the consumption side, some PO4 gets BOUND into the rock & substrate and some is consumed. Consumption can vary a lot depending on a variety of factors including:
a) dino population
b) bacterial consumption
c) are the corals in consumption mode? Or are they upset and closed up?
d) All forms of export (skimmer, refugium, etc)

When I was going through dinos, I am sure I was going through .1 or more per day. Even after that, I had to keep dosing as the rock was depleted. Once the rock was saturated and the dinos suppressed, I no longer had to dose. Fish/coral food was enough to keep measurable PO4.

 

[ScottB]

I’ve been dosing MB7 for about 2-3 weeks with no significant change. If anything my Dino’s are now more prominent. I am however feeding a lot of phytoplankton and dosing nitrates to get them detectable

Playing catchup here..

IIRC, @taricha suggested against feeding phyto. I know you don't want to be dosing aminos (from experience) but I think phytos are also delicious to dinos as the mucus mats trap them for consumption.

 

[ScottB]

This is what I'm dealing with.

This is the UV set up

Anyone have thoughts or suggestions on my approach?

UV set up looks ugly -- but very effective!
Avoid dosing acropower for a long, long time. Trust me on this. It should be renamed DinoPower.

 

[ScottB]

Current parameters
Nitrates...............0 - 5ppm (Closer to 5ppm)
Phos....................0.04 - 0.08
Alk.......................8.6 (Trident)
Cal.......................406 (Trident)
Mag....................1357 (Trident)
Ph.......................7.79 (Apex probe) 7:30am
Salt.....................35.5 (Apex probe)
ORP....................353 (Apex probe)
Temp..................77.8 (Apex probe)
Nitrate test is API reagent via Reefbot
Phos test is Red Sea reagent via Reefbot.

I have run my lights on regular schedule for the past two days with the UV running. I will observe the tank for the next few days to see what's happening with the dinos. Yesterday tank looked good but dinos are present on overflow and powerheads. They are thin and light amount but still present.
Problem is that I can't KEEP the UV in operation like this even if it's effective. I can't have a giant return pump in my display. Running it from the sump to the sump is a waste. (See BRS UV videos)

I believe the approach I am taking is a good approach based on theory, past experiences and experiences of others.
I currently have UV running which should be reducing dinos population when I blow the rocks and sand and clean the glass to get the dinos into the water column. I plan to pull the UV in a few days and start treatment.

TREATMENT PLAN
1... Employ UV Sterilizer in closed loop
2... 3 day blackout dosing Dr. Tim's Refresh
3... Continue with Dr Tim's Waste Away liquid.
4... Use Dr. Tim's Waste Away gel in sump.

I am trying to decide when to use the heavy mechanical filtration (DE filters). Before treatment, after treatment or before and after. I will not use during because it filters down to 1 micron. I don't want Dr. Tim's bacteria getting filtered out.

This is not my 1st fight with dinos. Last battle I had was a 5 year battle on my old 110 gallon reef. DInos won.

The war I lost...
I raised nitrates and phosphates. (No good)
I used UV but did not know I was using it improperly. (No good)
Blackouts (knock them back but not good enough on its own)
Vibrant dosing. (No good)
MB7 dosing. (No good)
Peroxide dosing. (No good)
Sea cucumbers. (No good)
Stupidly high flow. (No good)
Leaving sand alone. (No good)
Surface siphoning sandbed. (No good)
Deep disturbing sandbed with heavy mechanical filtration using 5 micron socks changed every day. (Better but no good)
Feeding tank. (No good)
Starving tank. (No good)
Increase pods. (No good)
Beefed up fuge chaeto. (No good)
Decrease light intensity. (No good)
Increase light intensity. (No good)
Change light fixtures. (No good)
Sacred Indian dino dance. (No good)
9mm. (No good)
.45 ACP. (No good)
12ga. (No good)
Photon torpedo straight from the Starship Enterprise. (No good)

Did you then, and do you now have a dino ID? It sounds like large cell amphidinium.

If that is the case, I think the Sacred Indian Dino Dance (SIDD) is your best bet. You just have to practise it with consistency. Leave everything else alone. Don't disturb the tank, the sand, nothing. Just maintain your basics, temp and salinity. Treat them as just an "uglies" phase. They are not toxic; they are just ugly. And they seem to thrive when the biome is changing. When we keep pulling levers, we are just disturbing the potential competition.

This is opinion of course. It is just that the other species are "simple" to treat. But not these. I have yet to see a consensus agreed treatment method for these other than to let them burn themselves out. Just like you would (or should) treat the "uglies" phase of biome maturation.

Hang in there. Do The Dance.

 

[Dj City]

Video of what I have going on.
Is a bad video but it's what I was able to get.



This is what I'm working with.
What is it and how do I did myself of it?

I was told....
"You definitely have amphidinium. It looks like large cell and small cell amphidinium.
Actually two different kinds. The large cell is the more common and never leaves the sand. The small cell amphidinium types do occasionally go into the water, and so they can be slightly affected by UV, but they also spend most of their time in the sand."

 

[Dj City]

I forgot...
I also ran ozone on the old tank. Still run ozone on this 180 gallon but will disable it during treatment.

 

[Dj City]

I need to break out the microscope to ID what I "currently" have going on.
The dinos I have in this tank look different than what I had in the old tank.
These dinos look more weblike where dinos in old tank looked like rust.
Also, these dinos get on rocks, glass, overflow, powerheads and corals.

Any preliminary ideas on what I might be dealing with based on my description?

 

[Dj City]

Here is a pic of my old tank sandbed vs what I have in the new tank.

Old

New

 

[ScottB]

I need to break out the microscope to ID what I "currently" have going on.
The dinos I have in this tank look different than what I had in the old tank.
These dinos look more weblike where dinos in old tank looked like rust.
Also, these dinos get on rocks, glass, overflow, powerheads and corals.

Any preliminary ideas on what I might be dealing with based on my description?

Without a scope pic I would be guessing. If I had to guess it would be a combo of LC Amphidinium and one of the other four.

How old is the "new" system?

 

[Dj City]

4 months.

 

[ScottB]

4 months.

Never hurts to know what dino(s) you have, but at that level of biome immaturity, I'd advise the Sacred Indian Dino Dance each morning, yoga in the afternoon, and a good bourbon most evenings.

 

[ScottB]

4 months.

But if you want to commune with the torture of many fellow reefers as they vigorously (and sadly largely fruitlessly) try to destroy amphids, you can kill the rest of your weekend reading this thread:

Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

This thread is a spin-off from the @mcarroll very successful Dino thread The purpose is to discuss methods for removal and fighting against a particular strain of dinoflagellate - Large Cell Amphidinium. It seems to make up about a third of the cases of dinos. The reason this strain gets its...

www.reef2reef.com

(I apologize if I am coming off snarky; it is not my intention at all. Just playing into the Sacred Indian humor I found in your post.)

 

[Marc2952]

Ok last update on the dinos things are looking much better! After adding the fiji mud MB7 dosing among turkey basting the rocks one thing that i havent seen anyone mention is mixing a cup of tank water with coral snow and zeobak, let it sit for a couple of minutes then add it to the tank after lights are off. My LFS told me that and idk if it was that or a combination of everything but it has kept the dinos at bay for a couple of days now. Including the ones that are always on the sand, gotta skim wet when doing the coral snow and zeobak mix. Gotta glue that frut look torch btw dont mind that or the frogspawn ( had to cut the other head since it had brown jelly disease)

 

[drawman]

Ok last update on the dinos things are looking much better! After adding the fiji mud MB7 dosing among turkey basting the rocks one thing that i havent seen anyone mention is mixing a cup of tank water with coral snow and zeobak, let it sit for a couple of minutes then add it to the tank after lights are off. My LFS told me that and idk if it was that or a combination of everything but it has kept the dinos at bay for a couple of days now. Including the ones that are always on the sand, gotta skim wet when doing the coral snow and zeobak mix. Gotta glue that frut look torch btw dont mind that or the frogspawn ( had to cut the other head since it had brown jelly disease)

Kind of an odd recommendation but glad it's working.

 

[Marc2952]

Kind of an odd recommendation but glad it's working.

Yea i know its strange lol but its been a well known recipe for cyano. Seems to be helping with the dinos too

 

[bobssecrtsn]

A little update on my battle, About 4 weeks ago, I purchased a microscope, and it turned outi had Prorocentrum Dino's. ID HERE Since then did the following steps,

I do want to point out that I did add a ATS Scrubber, and i am harvesting every two weeks. Before changing anything drastically, I performed a 3 day black out, I kept my ATS scrubber on 24/7 and that was the only light source Dino's had. My theory was that it would hopefully favor the flow and light in the ATS.

- stopped daily WC
- I had a 24W AquaUV running 24/7. I purchased an ADDITIONAL 24W, and plumbed it into my sump, How i am running it is, Return pump > UV > Chiller > UV > SUMP.
- in the AM before lights turn on I dose 4ML of po4, ( raises it approx. .04 )
- Feed regularly, ( that means im feeding about 4 cubes of frozen a day + pellets 3x a day.
- Dosed MB7 for 2 weeks straight, The bottle ran out so I stopped using it.
-added tigger pods 2x bottles
-added 40lbs of established rock from a buddy that was breaking down is tank (approx. 4 year old rock )
-removed 30lbs of liferock arches
-ran only BLUE lighting for 4 hours a day. ramping up slowly and adding whites to the mix. ( 2 week after the blackout )
-Today i started to have my T5 on for 4 hours a day
- Run my skimmate DRY
- kept my glass DIRTY. I didnt clean it till today. from the weeks and weeks of battling them.
-Dose expired PHYTOFEAST to the tank once a week


The 3 day black out wiped out most of it. Probably because they were dormant. and this was 4 weeks ago.

A quick reminder, that during the two weeks time of blackout and changing light settings. I kept the tank covered every night and day so when the lights arent on the tank is pitch black.

Last Monday I went ahead and added some ALGAEBARN package pods. 4 bottles of it. ( not sure how much that is )

This morning I had a chance to take out the microscope again and take a gander at the sand, none that I can see. only microscopic living creatures scattering around.



Video from today If you click the link, That video is from today, The only brown patches I see is underneath the rockwork/arches. I have not checked with a microscope if they are infact Dino's or not. But it is weird that they prefer shaded areas.

My tank has been set up for about 7 months now. and im starting to see an explosion of coralline algae. and finally a TON OF PODS in my sump.

Hope this helps anyone trying to fight them. When my Dino's exploded it was within a day that all my sand was covered in it. Its been a few weeks now that none has shown up. So im trying to be optimistic that im winning the fight.

 

[ScottB]

A little update on my battle, About 4 weeks ago, I purchased a microscope, and it turned outi had Prorocentrum Dino's. ID HERE Since then did the following steps,

I do want to point out that I did add a ATS Scrubber, and i am harvesting every two weeks. Before changing anything drastically, I performed a 3 day black out, I kept my ATS scrubber on 24/7 and that was the only light source Dino's had. My theory was that it would hopefully favor the flow and light in the ATS.

- stopped daily WC
- I had a 24W AquaUV running 24/7. I purchased an ADDITIONAL 24W, and plumbed it into my sump, How i am running it is, Return pump > UV > Chiller > UV > SUMP.
- in the AM before lights turn on I dose 4ML of po4, ( raises it approx. .04 )
- Feed regularly, ( that means im feeding about 4 cubes of frozen a day + pellets 3x a day.
- Dosed MB7 for 2 weeks straight, The bottle ran out so I stopped using it.
-added tigger pods 2x bottles
-added 40lbs of established rock from a buddy that was breaking down is tank (approx. 4 year old rock )
-removed 30lbs of liferock arches
-ran only BLUE lighting for 4 hours a day. ramping up slowly and adding whites to the mix. ( 2 week after the blackout )
-Today i started to have my T5 on for 4 hours a day
- Run my skimmate DRY
- kept my glass DIRTY. I didnt clean it till today. from the weeks and weeks of battling them.
-Dose expired PHYTOFEAST to the tank once a week


The 3 day black out wiped out most of it. Probably because they were dormant. and this was 4 weeks ago.

A quick reminder, that during the two weeks time of blackout and changing light settings. I kept the tank covered every night and day so when the lights arent on the tank is pitch black.

Last Monday I went ahead and added some ALGAEBARN package pods. 4 bottles of it. ( not sure how much that is )

This morning I had a chance to take out the microscope again and take a gander at the sand, none that I can see. only microscopic living creatures scattering around.



Video from today If you click the link, That video is from today, The only brown patches I see is underneath the rockwork/arches. I have not checked with a microscope if they are infact Dino's or not. But it is weird that they prefer shaded areas.

My tank has been set up for about 7 months now. and im starting to see an explosion of coralline algae. and finally a TON OF PODS in my sump.

Hope this helps anyone trying to fight them. When my Dino's exploded it was within a day that all my sand was covered in it. Its been a few weeks now that none has shown up. So im trying to be optimistic that im winning the fight.

Glad to hear you have made this progress. Several moving parts, but any chance you can boil this down to the steps you believe most impacted? Kinda sounds like you moved the dinos down to the sump via the lighting on the ATS and zapped them there. I have seen something similar with refugium lighting and UV. Does this ring true with your experience?

 

[bobssecrtsn]

Glad to hear you have made this progress. Several moving parts, but any chance you can boil this down to the steps you believe most impacted? Kinda sounds like you moved the dinos down to the sump via the lighting on the ATS and zapped them there. I have seen something similar with refugium lighting and UV. Does this ring true with your experience?

Now that you mentioned it, I did check the algae that was in the ATS and I seen some Prorocentrum Dino's after the 3 day black out, The only reason i checked was because my algae sheet had some brown patches where the GHA did not hold yet.

UPDATE: I was curious to see what the brown little patches were under the rock work and i was so happy to see that it was not Dino's Instead its these guys, Not sure what they are. but I am glad they are not dinos. Can anyone ID these?

 

[bobssecrtsn]

Here is a better photo,

 

[Marc2952]

Here is a better photo,

Hey what microscope do you use? Im trying to find a cheap one that works to see dinos.