Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[mcarroll]

CUC is about 20 hermits 25ish snails 2 conch and a brittle star. I have a 36 wt uv sterilizer that I'm running about 400 gph through and lastly I have a bag w carbon and gfo mixed in the last chamber between the fuge and return pump.

When you say stop everything but skimming and water changes do you mean socks and the fuge also?

The rock came out of the old tank directly to the new one.

CUC
That's not a lot for a 180, but you do have to judge the correct number by the amount of algae available. Just be aware that there should be plenty of room to increase those numbers. Personally I'd never have more than a handful of hermits in the tank. So I'd also let the population shift to snails over time. Not sure if you'll have luck with the conchs....that's probably too much snail for that tank. One might even be a lot. Stick with Ceriths and Turbo's (e.g. turbo, trochus, crown top...even asreas).

UV is likely to be suppressing the dino's, and carbon could be eliminating most of the toxins, if any are being formed. Good for the tank, but might make the symptoms harder to see.

A Few More Questions
What is your UV set up to target at that flow rate? Dino's are armored and it's thought to take a high-power dose to kill. (Sensible, but I still haven't seen any lit. on this however.)

Any strange behavior by the CUC like seeming to be stunned or drunk and slow-moving?

How about micro-CUC? How are your pods? Less than normal? Slower than normal? Mostly standing still instead of finding and eating food?

Recommendations so far
Like @sfin52 said, I would definitely cut off the GFO.

If you have a ton of algae in the fuge I would probably at least remove a good percentage of it – 75-90%.

I'd probably remove all of the algae if you will not have a problem replacing it later on.

If you're on a monthly carbon-replacement schedule (for example), reset the clock now and clean out the bag. Reload it with 1/4 the amount of carbon (only). Replace it weekly. Do this at least until you're able to rule out dino's.

And watch out for that brittle star....if motivated they are excellent fish and crustacean hunters. Ambush style at night, while the target is sleeping (fish) or exploring (invert). Plenty of folks have lost fish and mine ate a porcelain crab that was almost as big as he was. Didn't see it happen, but I know the star's body wasn't crab-shaped when I left him and the crab was never seen again. The "swallowing" must've been a real sight.

 

[J.durk]

CUC
That's not a lot for a 180, but you do have to judge the correct number by the amount of algae available. Just be aware that there should be plenty of room to increase those numbers. Personally I'd never have more than a handful of hermits in the tank. So I'd also let the population shift to snails over time. Not sure if you'll have luck with the conchs....that's probably too much snail for that tank. One might even be a lot. Stick with Ceriths and Turbo's (e.g. turbo, trochus, crown top...even asreas).

UV is likely to be suppressing the dino's, and carbon could be eliminating most of the toxins, if any are being formed. Good for the tank, but might make the symptoms harder to see.

A Few More Questions
What is your UV set up to target at that flow rate? Dino's are armored and it's thought to take a high-power dose to kill. (Sensible, but I still haven't seen any lit. on this however.)

Any strange behavior by the CUC like seeming to be stunned or drunk and slow-moving?

How about micro-CUC? How are your pods? Less than normal? Slower than normal? Mostly standing still instead of finding and eating food?

Recommendations so far
Like @sfin52 said, I would definitely cut off the GFO.

If you have a ton of algae in the fuge I would probably at least remove a good percentage of it – 75-90%.

I'd probably remove all of the algae if you will not have a problem replacing it later on.

If you're on a monthly carbon-replacement schedule (for example), reset the clock now and clean out the bag. Reload it with 1/4 the amount of carbon (only). Replace it weekly. Do this at least until you're able to rule out dino's.

And watch out for that brittle star....if motivated they are excellent fish and crustacean hunters. Ambush style at night, while the target is sleeping (fish) or exploring (invert). Plenty of folks have lost fish and mine ate a porcelain crab that was almost as big as he was. Didn't see it happen, but I know the star's body wasn't crab-shaped when I left him and the crab was never seen again. The "swallowing" must've been a real sight.

This will eat crabs and fish?!?

 

[tsav87]

NO3 8ppm. PO4 0.08ppm

48 hours since the completion of a 72 hour blackout. No signs of Dinos!!!

 

[tsav87]

Things I have done over the past few weeks.


1. 3 days lights out
2. Changed salts to Brightwell NeoMarine
3. Added pods and dosing phyto daily from Algae Barn
4. Added a real cleanup crew from Reef Cleaners
5. Added Tom the tomini tang. He loves hair algae.
6. Last but most importantly, I balanced out my N and P levels. PO4 was undetectable and I used Brightwell NeoPhos to bring it up to 0.08ppm. NO3 is at 8ppm.

 

[J.durk]

The uv sterilizer is supposed to be set up around 290 for Parisites and 680 for algae. 400 is as low as I can go with the pumps I have right now.

I had a lot of pods but lately I haven't seem many not real sure why. The rest of the cuc seam fine.

I will change the carbon right now. I can clean out the algae but maybe I am but slow, why am I doing this? Because the algae are using up phosphate?

 

[sfin52]

I know those as serpent star and I believe there are some that can eat fish.

 

[J.durk]

I know those as serpent star and I believe there are some that can eat fish.

Wow I had no idea

 

[sfin52]

I was at a lfs and just had a green serpent star returned a second time. The first time it grew and developed a taste for fish. The second person was warned and still bought it. It ate about 300 dollars of fish. He was warned.

 

[Torqued]

I have the scope....just had to leave for a week. Will take some shots when I get home.

I did do the towel test again. I shoot the heck out of it and it mostly all settled to the bottom and clumped again after a few hours...

 

[J.durk]

So here's something weird the naso tang that I've had for over a year all of a sudden this morning was hiding had his little stressed spots on and really hasn't moved a lot all day and tonight I just found him behind some rocks breathing heavy and not really moving. If I do have Dino and he did eat some could it kill a 5 in naso that was eating like a pig two days ago?

 

[J.durk]

I was at a lfs and just had a green serpent star returned a second time. The first time it grew and developed a taste for fish. The second person was warned and still bought it. It ate about 300 dollars of fish. He was warned.

Yikes!

 

[sfin52]

It is possible

 

[mcarroll]

This will eat crabs and fish?!?

"Can". Not "will". If they're well-fed, I doubt it. The problem is that they're purchased as CUC and folks these days pretty systematically starve their tanks these days in irrational fear of nitrates and phosphates (was guilty myself at the time in question).

So they may only be echinoderms, but they aren't dumb enough to starve to death....they hunt!

Added Tom the tomini tang. He loves hair algae.

\

They love cyano too. Natural detritivores...one of the best groups of tangs for aquarium life.

The uv sterilizer is supposed to be set up around 290 for Parisites and 680 for algae. 400 is as low as I can go with the pumps I have right now.

Well, if this is dino's you have some extra motivation to install a valve or something. You'd want to hit the parasite number, for sure.

BTW, have you measured the output from the UV? The actual GPH is really 400gph?

I had a lot of pods but lately I haven't seem many not real sure why.

This is important...pods are the canary in the coal mine....first to react to toxins.

I can clean out the algae but maybe I am but slow, why am I doing this? Because the algae are using up phosphate?

Yes. Mostly just to reduce competition for limited N and P resources until we figure out for sure what's going on. (Alleviating this competition is going to be a good idea regardless.)

I was at a lfs and just had a green serpent star returned a second time.

They are the "worst" of all....and they get huge. We has one in our shop we called "The Death Star" that was bigger than a dinner plate.

Not the most popular livestock item we had.

If I do have Dino and he did eat some could it kill a 5 in naso that was eating like a pig two days ago?

Dino's aren't known as a "fish killer" but I'd still have to say yeah it's possible. It'd be a little strange that none of the snails would be responding, but perhaps they avoided the toxic stuff, but the fish did not. Possible.

 

[XNavyDiver]

NO3 8ppm. PO4 0.08ppm

48 hours since the completion of a 72 hour blackout. No signs of Dinos!!!

Your nutrients are exactly where mine are at currently. Your tank is looking terrific, btw. I wish I could say the same. Last night I went ahead and pulled out 3 more sps corals that had been slowly deteriorating over the last couple of weeks hoping that they would make a comeback. No such luck. Checked my alk/cal/mag as usual and its been climbing steadily for a week now, I guess because anything that used it, is no longer... shut down the dosser.
I'm still gonna wait for a few more days and see if anything progresses with the addition of the GARF Grunge. If not, I'll consider the addition of phyto/pods from algae barn. I just balk right now at the addition of anything living to this tank, as it seems the kiss of death at the moment.
I have to admit, watching this tank make this slow and steady decline from corals populating the rocks and coralline algae slowly covering everything to fewer and fewer corals and dinos matting over every thing choking the life out of it, has been depressing to say the least. There are few worse feelings than that of impotence and helplessness.

 

[m0jjen]

Your nutrients are exactly where mine are at currently. Your tank is looking terrific, btw. I wish I could say the same. Last night I went ahead and pulled out 3 more sps corals that had been slowly deteriorating over the last couple of weeks hoping that they would make a comeback. No such luck. Checked my alk/cal/mag as usual and its been climbing steadily for a week now, I guess because anything that used it, is no longer... shut down the dosser.
I'm still gonna wait for a few more days and see if anything progresses with the addition of the GARF Grunge. If not, I'll consider the addition of phyto/pods from algae barn. I just balk right now at the addition of anything living to this tank, as it seems the kiss of death at the moment.
I have to admit, watching this tank make this slow and steady decline from corals populating the rocks and coralline algae slowly covering everything to fewer and fewer corals and dinos matting over every thing choking the life out of it, has been depressing to say the least. There are few worse feelings than that of impotence and helplessness.

Have you gotten an positiv ID on your dinos? As i previously stated my ovata go decimated in mather of days when i got my nutrients up to 10 ppm no3 and 0.1 ppm po4. Sure i have other algae and some green cyano now but they are also slowly but surely declining since i dont add nutrients anymore. My current numbers (after dino is gone) 5 ppm no3 and 0.9 ppm po4. This is about 2 weeks after i stopped dosing

 

[XNavyDiver]

Have you gotten an positiv ID on your dinos? As i previously stated my ovata go decimated in mather of days when i got my nutrients up to 10 ppm no3 and 0.1 ppm po4. Sure i have other algae and some green cyano now but they are also slowly but surely declining since i dont add nutrients anymore. My current numbers (after dino is gone) 5 ppm no3 and 0.9 ppm po4. This is about 2 weeks after i stopped dosing

No, I haven't. I have contemplated getting a microscope that can take pictures, but I've seen too many threads of folks posting their pictures of dinos asking "what do I have?" and getting replies of "it might be this or it might be that.." If I made that kind of purchase right now, my wife would serve me with divorce papers (ok, so I'm exaggerating here, but to say this tank is a source of tension between us is accurate). That's just too much uncertainty for me to risk a purchase that would get used once. One of my unfortunate problems is where I live. There is no local reef club to turn to for support. I am literally hours away from the one and only lfs. I paid one of their employees to drive down to my house last week to take a look at it. He showed up with his api test kits ( I have Hanna, Salifert and RS) to tell me what I already know, and probably know more accurately. With the exception of on line sources, I am, for all intents and purposes, on my own.

 

[sfin52]

Not on your own. Just by your self. We are all in this together.

 

[tsav87]

No, I haven't. I have contemplated getting a microscope that can take pictures, but I've seen too many threads of folks posting their pictures of dinos asking "what do I have?" and getting replies of "it might be this or it might be that.." If I made that kind of purchase right now, my wife would serve me with divorce papers (ok, so I'm exaggerating here, but to say this tank is a source of tension between us is accurate). That's just too much uncertainty for me to risk a purchase that would get used once. One of my unfortunate problems is where I live. There is no local reef club to turn to for support. I am literally hours away from the one and only lfs. I paid one of their employees to drive down to my house last week to take a look at it. He showed up with his api test kits ( I have Hanna, Salifert and RS) to tell me what I already know, and probably know more accurately. With the exception of on line sources, I am, for all intents and purposes, on my own.

I used my kids toy/low level microscope with my iphone to get the pictures and vids of my outbreak.

The guesses of an ID you will get will get you closer to a cure. Right now you are taking shots in the dark.

If a microscope is truly out of the question, maybe you could post up the obvious characteristics of your dinos? Photosynthetic? On the sand only or also on the rocks? Stringy? Bubbly? Dusty? Gooey? Perhaps someone here can point you in a direction based on those characteristics.

For me, 72 ours lights out KOed them and I think that keeping the N and P levels up are allowing competing algae to have a chance as well as the introduction of predators (pods and our Tomini tang) has helped rid the dinos and prevents them from coming back. Hopefully. If you really want to beat them, you need to know your enemy and throw everything at it at one time. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[sfin52]

It helps to do water changes into a bucket running the water through a filter sock. Return the filtered water back into tank. Blow off the rocks on regular basis.

 

[XNavyDiver]

I used my kids toy/low level microscope with my iphone to get the pictures and vids of my outbreak.

The guesses of an ID you will get will get you closer to a cure. Right now you are taking shots in the dark.

If a microscope is truly out of the question, maybe you could post up the obvious characteristics of your dinos? Photosynthetic? On the sand only or also on the rocks? Stringy? Bubbly? Dusty? Gooey? Perhaps someone here can point you in a direction based on those characteristics.

For me, 72 ours lights out KOed them and I think that keeping the N and P levels up are allowing competing algae to have a chance as well as the introduction of predators (pods and our Tomini tang) has helped rid the dinos and prevents them from coming back. Hopefully. If you really want to beat them, you need to know your enemy and throw everything at it at one time. I wish you the best of luck.

It's brown, snotty, stringy, produces bubbles that get trapped in the snotty matrix, it's on the rockwork and the sand bed. It disapears at night and re appears during the day. It wants to cover any coral like a spider web.
I'm at work at the moment, but here are a couple of pics saved in my phone. I tried to enhance them best I could.