DIY Alkatronic reagent

Dennis Cartier

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Remember with your probes in the tank that are staying in the water all the time you need to take much longer time to calibrate. This can be a pain with the limited calibration in the Alkatronic, I find it strange they did not give us the native controls of the Atlas Scientific pH board and let us do 3 point calibration and/or not be restricted by the Alkatronic time out during calibration. It takes from 15mins to 30mins in each buffer solution to calibrate a probe that is continuously immersed, at least you can leave the probe in the ph7 buffer for a while before starting calibration on the Alkatronic but alas not for pH4 buffer and no pH10 buffer despite samples starting well above pH7.

Unfortunately all these companies for some reason persist with using pinpoint calibration designed for a probe only being used for a few minutes at a time, but we are using the probes constantly so they need another form of calibration. You can tell if you probe is incorrectly calibrated, just put it back in some pH 7 buffer and come back in a hour and see how much it has drifted from 7 after that hour. If it drifts less than 0.01 then you good to go, if it drifts more than this then you need to leave it in each buffer solution longer before calibration. The older the probe the longer the buffer soak time.

My hydro setups are almost completely automated and manage the pH control precisely (along with other chemistry and environmental controls). There is one thing you have to have when continuously controlling pH, and that is more than 1 pH probe being used to take the pH readings for the control loop. A probe can throw a wild reading easily and this needs to be managed through multiple probes and a bunch of additional safety controls. I often laugh at how poor the brand name controllers are for reef aquariums, their poor choice of components, the terrible programming and silly limitations baked in especially when you consider how many are using Atlas Scientific for the bulk of the hardware and open source libraries. Just amazes me we don't see more lift and shift from the hydro world considering how much better most of the products are. A prime example is the Alkatronic with a Pi Zero hooked via I2C to a custom daughter board populated with Atlas Scientific components and motor drivers, when for far less you could have just run a standard Atlas Scientific board that stacks on a pi 3 or 4 (and fix the poor responsiveness of a Pi Zero) with Atlas Scientific peristaltic pumps with the motor drivers onboard the motors..... like in hydro. Then bloody formal coat the electronic boards seeing as we are dealing with a hostile environment for electronics inside the case where the electronics are housed....

As for the reagent, I buy 2N Sulfuric acid (about $25USD per litre locally) and use a precision pipette dispenser to make up a couple of 5ltrs containers at a time. It is the cheapest option locally (I have 4x Alkatronics on test every 3 hours) and I already have the precision dispensing needed to keep things accurate (about another $20USD if you had to buy the pipette and tips if you are playing along at home). I dump the waste back into the sump via a couple of chambers (the inline ones used for refillable DI resin) full of reborn and coarse oolite aragonite to reduce any impact on alk or pH. I measure the RO/DI water by weight and the acid by volume when preparing the final reagent solution. Although this is the cheapest and easiest option for me, it by no means is the safest and you should definitely be in appropriate PPE when playing with this concentration of sulfuric acid.
Ya, I was kind of thinking that the limited range of the Alkatronic's calibration was affecting the readings above 7.0 pH. After switching to a new pH probe in my sump (hooked to my Atlas hardware), I get similar readings to what I was getting with the Milwaukee probe (which was also fairly new).

Currently my 24 hour daily pH readings are 8.03 - 8.12 for the sump probe and 8.08 - 8.22 for the Alkatronic. I attribute the low daily high readings to the unlit portion of my system, meaning either my coral mass when the lights are off, or my fuge when the grow light is off. I keep a large amount of macro growing in a barrel, and expect that it limits my daily lows, and also (unfortunately) the daily highs.

During the last 24 hours, my dKH has been 8.62 - 8.67, testing every 3 hours.

I hear ya on the need for multiple probes. I use a custom ATO that I developed that operates on EC. The common advice is to never depend on EC for salinity control, and it's good advice, because a single EC probe will not give a dependable enough response to allow for safe salinity control. That is why I use 5 EC probes in my ATO controller. I originally used 3 Atlas Scientific EC probes, and later added 2 Thermo Scientific Orion probes.

With just the 3 Atlas probes, the ATO was workable, but required more effort to keep calibrated than I liked. Our tanks are hostile environments for EC probes. There is always something that wants to live, crawl, or deposit on the surface of the EC electrodes. The 2 cell Atlas probes are especially vulnerable to being impacted. When I first started using the Atlas EC probes, I was a bit mystified why the readings jump around so much. I went back to Atlas staff multiple times questioning my results, but each time heard that they get very little reports of problems with the EC probes. I ended up building an in sump manifold to hold the 3 Atlas EC probes, hooked to a small Sicce pump to flow water past them continuously to discourage squatters. It works for the most part.

When I added the 2, Thermo Scientific probes, hooked up over USB using bench top meters, I attained far greater stability. They use 4 cell electrodes and are much more resistant to being impacted. They did bring their own communication issues though. I had to build in methods of resetting the USB port and the devices themselves when they stopped sending updates. I have them setup to send an update every 60 seconds.

I developed the ATO to head off potential issues that have bitten me in the past. Mainly my love of running dual headed, continuous water changes, and my misplaced trust that they will stay balanced over time. They never do, and that fact has led to a couple of crashes when things got way out of whack and I was asleep at the switch. So I decided to build a way of protecting from that issue, and it also protects against salinity errors on the new make up water. Even if I totally mess up mixing my make up water, the ATO fixes it for me.

It also corrects all effects from dosing 3 part (which I recently added). For people who use kalk exclusively, and run into the daily evaporation limit, this style of ATO could be employed to add concentrated brine to maintain correct salinity, regardless of how much kalk is required daily. A level control would then pump water out to waste to account for the excess water being added and corrected for by the ATO. Kind of an ATO and AWC all in one.

Using my ATO, I keep my salinity constrained to a 125 uS range (1.0263 - 1.0264). I consider this pretty stable.

Back on topic, handling the 10N muriatic acid that I had planned to sub in for the DIY reagent, along with the NaOH in my 3 part, are the only 2 things that give me great cause for concern. Having to mix new batches of reagent every few months using it, is one of the reasons I am looking at using the OEM again. Well that and the fact the OEM dropped in price to match the DIY version, which is no longer available locally anyway.
 

Redemptioner

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Ya, I was kind of thinking that the limited range of the Alkatronic's calibration was affecting the readings above 7.0 pH. After switching to a new pH probe in my sump (hooked to my Atlas hardware), I get similar readings to what I was getting with the Milwaukee probe (which was also fairly new).

Well it is just an Atlas Scientific pH daughter board after all, so if you have any other AS ex/main board (or just some jumper leads and arduino/pi) you can easily achieve 3 point calibrate as the calibration is stored locally on the daughter board.... ;)
 

Dennis Cartier

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Well it is just an Atlas Scientific pH daughter board after all, so if you have any other AS ex/main board (or just some jumper leads and arduino/pi) you can easily achieve 3 point calibrate as the calibration is stored locally on the daughter board.... ;)
Lol, I do have a couple of Tentacle T3 boards ... but those are what runs my ATO. So (locally) fixing Focustronic's short comings on the calibration is too much effort, even for me.

Perhaps I will reach out to Eric as Mike suggested. Though if I do that, I have a long, long laundry list of things I would like to see fixed even before the calibration. Like why does each of their UI's present a different subset of properties (BT App|Wifi App|Web|Cloud)? Why do so many dialogs not present useful information that match the events underway? The calibration is a good a good example of this. While running the calibration, you have no clue what is occurring, unless you look at the LCD on the unit itself. Why are they still shipping firmware based on a version of Raspian that is like a decade old, with known exploits?
 

Redemptioner

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T3 boards
Dam I love these boards, so many things that can be made so easily. They legitimately could of (and probably should of) made the Alkatronic with one T3, a Pi 3b+ and four of the AS pumps...

Why do so many dialogs not present useful information that match the events underway? The calibration is a good a good example of this. While running the calibration, you have no clue what is occurring, unless you look at the LCD on the unit itself. Why are they still shipping firmware based on a version of Raspian that is like a decade old, with known exploits?

Don't get me started on this, it boggles the mind...... and I think I would also take the LCD output to be displayed front and centre in the app first I think.
 

maxreef

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Hello,

I need your help, I have H2SO4 98%, is this formula correct to make 0.1N?
2.72ml of H2SO4 in 1000ml of water will make 0.1 N
H2SO4 reagent?

Thanks.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Hello,

I need your help, I have H2SO4 98%, is this formula correct to make 0.1N?
2.72ml of H2SO4 in 1000ml of water will make 0.1 N
H2SO4 reagent?

Thanks.
That 2.72 mL is about 5.0 g or 0.05 moles or 0.1 equivalents.

It should be added to a water to make a final volume of 1 L, not just added to 1 L, but the difference is small.
 

maxreef

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That 2.72 mL is about 5.0 g or 0.05 moles or 0.1 equivalents.

It should be added to a water to make a final volume of 1 L, not just added to 1 L, but the difference is small.
Hello Randy, Thanks for your answer I added 2.72ml to 1L and my measurement was off by 0.7dkh. Then I will create a finished 1L solution as you say.

IMG_2173.png
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Hello Randy, Thanks for your answer I added 2.72ml to 1L and my measurement was off by 0.7dkh. Then I will create a finished 1L solution as you say.

IMG_2173.png

The effect of the volume change is not going to account for being off by 0.7 dKH.
 

dwest

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That 2.72 ml of concentrated sulfuric acid is a very small amount to measure out. A couple of tenths of a ml error either way could make a 10% difference in acid strength. Plus, I’m wondering if the 0.7 dKH different new measurement is actually closer to actual.

Either way, I wouldn’t worry. If the number is consistent, you can say that the new value is ”correct” or you can put the fudge factor in the alkatronic to add or subtract the 0.7 dKH difference.

I compare my alkatronic reading to my Hanna monthly as a “check”. Most often there is about a 0.2 ish dKH difference. I don’t care which one is “right”. I did have a period of time when there was greater than a 0.5 difference. I replaced the alkatronic pH probe to resolve that.
 

thatmanMIKEson

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That 2.72 ml of concentrated sulfuric acid is a very small amount to measure out. A couple of tenths of a ml error either way could make a 10% difference in acid strength. Plus, I’m wondering if the 0.7 dKH different new measurement is actually closer to actual.

Either way, I wouldn’t worry. If the number is consistent, you can say that the new value is ”correct” or you can put the fudge factor in the alkatronic to add or subtract the 0.7 dKH difference.

I compare my alkatronic reading to my Hanna monthly as a “check”. Most often there is about a 0.2 ish dKH difference. I don’t care which one is “right”. I did have a period of time when there was greater than a 0.5 difference. I replaced the alkatronic pH probe to resolve that.
FUDGE FACTOR YOU SAY, HMMMMMMMM

artworks-000077997789-xi90ep-t500x500.jpg
 

Dennis Cartier

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Muriatic acid doesnt work because it evaporates to the air. It also diffuses through the walls of a pet bottle.
For a onetime measurement its good. Sulfuric acid does not evaporate in low concentration. 98% leaves a smoke that will damage Your lungs. If the air humidity is low spill will become more concentrated and cause rust on metal.
I would use citric acid. Does not evaporate or interact with air humidity. But of coarse the water its solved in can evaporate if kept open.
I would use drip bags as in a hospital to minimize the evaporation.
Oh oh. I was just reviewing this thread because I am again facing the prospect of coming up with a DIY replacement for the OEM reagent. The 4L of Coralvue reagent that I was able to purchase for $70.49 is now $154.00 since Coralvue stopped selling their version and my LFS can only get the BRS version.

I did work out the required dilution factor (1:99) a couple of years ago for a 20 baume 4L bottle of muriatic acid I have on hand, but your comment was years before that, and I am now wondering if this means that the 4L bottle would have become less concentrated in the meantime. If so, this would negate the possibility of using it as a suitable replacement for the OEM.

@Randy Holmes-Farley can you comment on the accuracy that muriatic acid will diffuse through the PET bottles it comes in?
 

kenchilada

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Oh oh. I was just reviewing this thread because I am again facing the prospect of coming up with a DIY replacement for the OEM reagent. The 4L of Coralvue reagent that I was able to purchase for $70.49 is now $154.00 since Coralvue stopped selling their version and my LFS can only get the BRS version.

I did work out the required dilution factor (1:99) a couple of years ago for a 20 baume 4L bottle of muriatic acid I have on hand, but your comment was years before that, and I am now wondering if this means that the 4L bottle would have become less concentrated in the meantime. If so, this would negate the possibility of using it as a suitable replacement for the OEM.

@Randy Holmes-Farley can you comment on the accuracy that muriatic acid will diffuse through the PET bottles it comes in?
Just off the cuff idea, couldn’t someone here take 2.0N and mix down a batch of 0.1N and ship it to you? Or is it illegal? It’s so cheap and easy.
 

Dennis Cartier

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Just off the cuff idea, couldn’t someone here take 2.0N and mix down a batch of 0.1N and ship it to you? Or is it illegal? It’s so cheap and easy.
I am not sure what the rules are around shipping acid here. I am also not sure why Amazon stopped selling the sulfuric acid standards in Canada.

If I setup an American Amazon account, I could probably have it shipped to a mail service in Niagara Falls, but that will be a last resort.
 

Sisterlimonpot

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I am not sure what the rules are around shipping acid here. I am also not sure why Amazon stopped selling the sulfuric acid standards in Canada.

If I setup an American Amazon account, I could probably have it shipped to a mail service in Niagara Falls, but that will be a last resort.
I just checked on American Amazon and it's unavailable too... hmmm.

Can you, if so, how can I dilute 1M?

Sulfuric Acid Solution, 1M, 1L - The Curated Chemical Collection https://a.co/d/1frzC1F
 

JeffB418

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Oh oh. I was just reviewing this thread because I am again facing the prospect of coming up with a DIY replacement for the OEM reagent. The 4L of Coralvue reagent that I was able to purchase for $70.49 is now $154.00 since Coralvue stopped selling their version and my LFS can only get the BRS version.

I did work out the required dilution factor (1:99) a couple of years ago for a 20 baume 4L bottle of muriatic acid I have on hand, but your comment was years before that, and I am now wondering if this means that the 4L bottle would have become less concentrated in the meantime. If so, this would negate the possibility of using it as a suitable replacement for the OEM.

@Randy Holmes-Farley can you comment on the accuracy that muriatic acid will diffuse through the PET bottles it comes in?
Coralvue will start selling the reagent again soon (atleast in the US that I know of), its possible it will just be a delay for CAN.
 

dwest

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I just checked on American Amazon and it's unavailable too... hmmm.

Can you, if so, how can I dilute 1M?

Sulfuric Acid Solution, 1M, 1L - The Curated Chemical Collection https://a.co/d/1frzC1F
I use 1M HCL from Amazon and make 5L at a time. My procedure is below. If you are using 1M sulfuric, you’ll use 1/2 the acid (50 ml) and the rest of the 5L will be water.
———————————————————
To make 5L of alkatronic reagent

100 ml 1M HCl plus 4900 ml water

Instructions:

  1. Fill a 100 ml volumetric flask with 1M acid
  2. Put the acid in a 1L volumetric flask and fill to 1L with ro water
  3. Add the solution to the alkatronic feed container.
  4. Add 4 more L RO water to container.
 

Kershaw

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so I picked this up from Amazon, my understanding is if I use 950ml of RO and 50ml N2 sulfuric acid that will produce 1000ml reagent.

I purchased a used alkatronic and don’t want to spend the 80$ on reagent until I know it works. I intend to use a 1000ml Nalgene bottle as a reagent container.
IMG_6629.jpeg
 

Sisterlimonpot

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so I picked this up from Amazon, my understanding is if I use 950ml of RO and 50ml N2 sulfuric acid that will produce 1000ml reagent.

I purchased a used alkatronic and don’t want to spend the 80$ on reagent until I know it works. I intend to use a 1000ml Nalgene bottle as a reagent container.
IMG_6629.jpeg
According to @dwest 50ml of 1M sulfuric will make 5 liters of reagent.

If correct then, 10ml of 1M sulfuric will mix with 990ml of rodi.
 

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