diy amino acid

[toaster77]

So it seems from the other thread that dosing just aspartic acid as a single amino acid is sufficient to elicit this response... if true this is certainly interesting and should be worth trying to replicate in other setups with the pure substance. Aspartate is a non-essential amino acid that can be derived from a mitochondrial metabolism intermediate and is utilized for the synthesis of the components of DNA and RNA. It can be both a carbon and nitrogen source.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So it seems from the other thread that dosing just aspartic acid as a single amino acid is sufficient to elicit this response... if true this is certainly interesting and should be worth trying to replicate in other setups with the pure substance. Aspartate is a non-essential amino acid that can be derived from a mitochondrial metabolism intermediate and is utilized for the synthesis of the components of DNA and RNA. It can be both a carbon and nitrogen source.

FWIW, it may be nonessential in people, but it is essential in corals to get enough from outside sources rather than synthesis by the coral or the zoox.

 

[toaster77]

Certainly, as I wrote earlier in the thread:

While indeed an amino acid being labeled as "non-essential" implies that the coral itself can synthesize it, it is still possible that dosing "non-essential" amino acids could have beneficial effects as it would spare the coral from having to synthesize them and precursors to these NEAAs could be instead directed towards other important molecules needed for growth/coloration, etc. that could really help in a nutrient-limited environment.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But how do you know aspartic acid is nonessential by that definition for corals?

 

[toaster77]

but it is essential in corals to get enough from outside sources rather than synthesis by the coral or the zoox.

Has this been shown or is it a hypothesis? Please direct to a reference. Certainly I agree this is possible.

Non-essential by definition for humans, but the genomes of several Acropora species have been sequenced, and it seems they may have putative orthologs of enzymes involved in aspartate synthesis (e.g., aspartate aminotransferase). So by this criteria, aspartate would be non-essential in the coral, but it is certainly possible that outside sources could still help substantially under particular conditions.

 

[toaster77]

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v476/n7360/full/nature10249.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20110818

I did a little digging and found this interesting reference. It seems at least for this Acropora digitifera species it lacks the ability to make the amino acid cysteine. I assume they would have noted if there was something similar about other amino acids.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have no idea, except that some corals cannot get all they need/want from themselves or their zoox. I do not know if they get any from internal synthesis, so I have no data to say whether it is technically "essential" for corals or not. So that's why I challenged the idea that it definitely was nonessential.

 

[McMullen]

@diesel3443 have you begun dosing? My acropower came in and I started Tuesday. I'm dosing less than bottle suggest to avoid cyano. No obvious feeding response or PE yet but probably a bit early for visual results.....plus under dosing.

 

[diesel3443]

@diesel3443 have you begun dosing? My acropower came in and I started Tuesday. I'm dosing less than bottle suggest to avoid cyano. No obvious feeding response or PE yet but probably a bit early for visual results.....plus under dosing.

Yes been dosing daily for about 2 weeks. I usually run undetected for nitrates but I tested yesterday and they are at 5 so they are doing the job. Probably need to tailor down my dose a little to every 3 days from everyday at this point.

Hard to say about polyp extension because I had very good extension before

 

[McMullen]

Are you dosing at the recommended dose?

 

[diesel3443]

I am dosing about 700mg per week of glutamic acid and 1000mg per week of aspartic in about 135gallons of water

 

[McMullen]

How did you come up with those doses?

 

[diesel3443]

Old threads on RC. Just experimenting as well

 

[McMullen]

Gotcha. This week I dosed per acropower recommended regimen. Nothing noticeable as of yet.

 

[biom]

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v476/n7360/full/nature10249.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20110818 . I did a little digging and found this interesting reference. It seems at least for this Acropora digitifera species it lacks the ability to make the amino acid cysteine. I assume they would have noted if there was something similar about other amino acids.

Thank you for the link, but they stated "...unlike several other corals, Acropora seems to lack an enzyme essential for cysteine biosynthesis, implying dependency of this coral on its symbionts for this amino acid." So the coral itself is not capable to syntheses cysteine, but its symbiont is capable.

 

[McMullen]

@biom, are you thinking dosing aminos isn't necessary?

 

[biom]

I think dosing of amino acids is not necessary for corals to survive in a well fed tank, but you want better colors, growth and polyp extension then aminos are necessary. I'm dosing aminos from long time and I'm convinced that one of the reasons for good colors of my corals are aminons. Currently I'm using mix of 8 aminos with good results, but tried almost all aminos on the market and they are all good.

 

[mcarroll]

Not entirely:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1218179/pdf/9078264.pdf
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/jexbio/211/6/860.full.pdf

Some are just simply AA like aspartic acid that are cheap and widely available. But other more recent AA supplements are based on actual testing of which amino acids are potentially beneficial such as the study linked above. Clearly their AA needs can be met by feeding alone as evidenced by our tanks but there is sufficient reason to believe at this point that additional supplementation of the right AA compounds could be beneficial to at least some tanks. And many reefkeepers have seen benefits from such supllements. Although it remains to be seen whether those benefits were due to direct absorption of the AA in question or potential indirect effects.

Just read that article a few days ago and then found this thread when I was searching R2R to see if anyone else was experimenting....

It's kinda funny you can tell that nobody read this article.

My take is that improved color and PE that are so frequently cited are coincidental. Just a sign of a healthier coral that's no longer nitrogen starved – not a sign of one or more "magic bullet" amino acids.

Some details to hopefully get a few people to read the biologists.org article...
Link again: http://jeb.biologists.org/content/211/6/860

Article:

Uptake of dissolved free amino acids by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata
Renaud Grover, Jean-François Maguer, Denis Allemand, Christine Ferrier-Pagès
Journal of Experimental Biology 2008 211: 860-865; doi: 10.1242/jeb.012807


The breakdown:

​

Uptake rates (nmol DFAA h–1 cm–2) by an entire microcolony of 11 amino acids tested separately at a final concentration of 3 μmol l–1, during 6 h incubation. Each value represents the mean ± s.d. of three individuals.​

The breakdown in context:

% Contribution of each nutrient for tissue growth.

My shorthand legend:

NH4 = fish pee (Ammonium)
Urea = fish pee
NO3 = Nitrifiying bacteria pee (Nitrates)
DFAA = Dissolved Free Amino Acids​

Don't dose at night:

Uptake rates at 0.5 μmol l–1 (white bars) and 3 μmol l–1 (grey bars) DFAA (nmol N h–1cm–2) during 7 h incubation under 0, 160 and 300 μmol photons m–2 s–1 in (A) coral tissue and (B) zooxanthellae. Each value represents the mean ± s.d. of three individuals. Asterisks indicate significant differences between uptake rates at 0.5 and 3 μmol l–1 for a given light intensity.​

 

[mcarroll]

@morpheas @Russ265 @twilliard or @robert did you guys already check out this thread/article?

 

[Russ265]

Here's my two cents.....none of these would be beneficial to mess around with. By education, I'm a biochemist, and fully aware of the essential amino acid needs for humans (mammals). That list you provide is for mammals. I am not aware of the essential amino acid needs of corals, but have to believe they get this need met in what they are being fed (fish poop for one). The non-essential amino acids are just a waste to add to your tank.....non essential means that the animal itself produces this amino acid.

Provide a stable environment with proper alk/calc/mag, with good light, and you'll be throwing the quickly growing corals away. No additional amino acids needed. It's marketing voodoo.

been saying this for years.
your body needs glucose to power your body but that doesnt mean you drink a glass of it every morning with your corn flakes.

amino acids have never been proven to do anything more than break down in to useable nitrate for photosynthesis.

urea, calcium, sodium, or potassium nitrate will do it more "purely"