Do you do water changes?

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Do you do water changes or dose?


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Koh23

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Ok,i'm no expert by any means, some things i know, some i dont have clue, some just guessing.... Been in hobby long enough, from freshwater to saltwater, but again, im now more confused than ever, more than i was first moment when i decide to switch to saltwater tanks.....

Seems to me, marketing impact on hobby is enormous, and now more than ever is turning all of this into religion...

Some of the best tanks i saw in person, were tanks where nothing is dosed, nothing is measured, there was no expensive controllers, equipment, par measuring, this or that pump, wavemaker, gyre....

Yes, thats all cool, and nice and desirable, but is mostly snake oil....

To be back on topic, water changes and no water changes advocating is a bit on dangerous side, same as with evertyhing, and thinking that you will have healtier corals, nicer colors, or better growth just because you do this, or purchase that, based on some opinion rather than experience is simply wrong....

All of those tanks that i mentioned had one thing in common - regular water changes. Thats all. No more, no less....

I watched the video, and even if i dont think youtube videos are relevant, no matter are they from some random reefer, or reputable seller who made video on this and that primary to advertise some product..... But, i noticed some very wrong things in that video....

First of all, and i dont mean to be rude, or disrespectful, or anything negative, buy you simply cannot advocate no water changes and have corals in state that is yours..... Yes, u pointed out that you have very low nitrates, but guess what..... Theres a lot of tanks filled with beautifull corals that also have undetectable nitrates.....

Also, u newer dose in tank. Period. When u dose stuff, u should dose it as far as you cam from tank, first sump chamber, or similar, u newer dose into pump thats in the tank.....

Yes, you can replenish almost everything in water with dosing, but, all of that bottles costs way more than bucket of salt....

I dont have religion regarding water changes, i dont have strict schedule, how many percent, how many days apart.....

Simply, look at your tank, it will tell you everything, change water according to that.

When i change 5-10% this is usualy quick "old water out, fresh water in" change. But when i clean sump, equipment, or vacum sand, then i do 15-20% change, and that all depends... Not every week, probably not every month....

Also, i see that is very popular to vacum sand, clean detritus and stuff by running loop trough filter sock... I assume that as quick cleaning from time to time this is ok, but, constantly, i hope that whoever does this, is aware that filter sock can capture only particles, not what is dissolved in water itself, even worse, when u stirr sand and detritus, you can remove it only if u remove water, filter sock will capture very little....

Apologies for long and mostly off topic post, just my thinking.....
 
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Ocean’s Piece

Ocean’s Piece

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Ok,i'm no expert by any means, some things i know, some i dont have clue, some just guessing.... Been in hobby long enough, from freshwater to saltwater, but again, im now more confused than ever, more than i was first moment when i decide to switch to saltwater tanks.....

Seems to me, marketing impact on hobby is enormous, and now more than ever is turning all of this into religion...

Some of the best tanks i saw in person, were tanks where nothing is dosed, nothing is measured, there was no expensive controllers, equipment, par measuring, this or that pump, wavemaker, gyre....

Yes, thats all cool, and nice and desirable, but is mostly snake oil....

To be back on topic, water changes and no water changes advocating is a bit on dangerous side, same as with evertyhing, and thinking that you will have healtier corals, nicer colors, or better growth just because you do this, or purchase that, based on some opinion rather than experience is simply wrong....

All of those tanks that i mentioned had one thing in common - regular water changes. Thats all. No more, no less....

I watched the video, and even if i dont think youtube videos are relevant, no matter are they from some random reefer, or reputable seller who made video on this and that primary to advertise some product..... But, i noticed some very wrong things in that video....

First of all, and i dont mean to be rude, or disrespectful, or anything negative, buy you simply cannot advocate no water changes and have corals in state that is yours..... Yes, u pointed out that you have very low nitrates, but guess what..... Theres a lot of tanks filled with beautifull corals that also have undetectable nitrates.....

Also, u newer dose in tank. Period. When u dose stuff, u should dose it as far as you cam from tank, first sump chamber, or similar, u newer dose into pump thats in the tank.....

Yes, you can replenish almost everything in water with dosing, but, all of that bottles costs way more than bucket of salt....

I dont have religion regarding water changes, i dont have strict schedule, how many percent, how many days apart.....

Simply, look at your tank, it will tell you everything, change water according to that.

When i change 5-10% this is usualy quick "old water out, fresh water in" change. But when i clean sump, equipment, or vacum sand, then i do 15-20% change, and that all depends... Not every week, probably not every month....

Also, i see that is very popular to vacum sand, clean detritus and stuff by running loop trough filter sock... I assume that as quick cleaning from time to time this is ok, but, constantly, i hope that whoever does this, is aware that filter sock can capture only particles, not what is dissolved in water itself, even worse, when u stirr sand and detritus, you can remove it only if u remove water, filter sock will capture very little....

Apologies for long and mostly off topic post, just my thinking.....
My zoas are in that state because of something else. Nitrates may be part of the issue, but I know why they’re upset. I don’t want to spoil anything because I will be making a video on this, but I know why they’re upset. Probably should have put that in the video.
I would dose away from everything but due to the nature of my AIO tank, there isn’t a better place. Only other place would be the return pump, but it has a lot slower flow than my wave maker. Since I can’t do this away from everything, I dose very very slowly into my wavemaker. I plan to get a dosing pump soon. And from what I have seen and heard, it is often done in the tank, and encouraged to be done in a fast flow area like a wavemaker. One coral that is nearby (chalice) closed up temporarily when I first started because I was dosing too quickly. Now, I know what speed and it always looks fine while I’m doing it.
I find that the few extra dollars it costs me to run this setup is worth my time and labor, so I’m willing to pay a few extra dollars each year to have an easy and timeless method to nutrient import and export.
While there are tanks that can run well in certain ways, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the best and only way for everyone. I’m experimenting what’s best for my tank and myself. Dosing is something that I have been doing and have had good success so far. There are some new challenges I have to face, but overtime, they will all be worked out and my method will be improved upon.
 

Koh23

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Of course, like i said, didnt meen to be rude, or saying that you dont know what u are doing....

Maybe i didnt clarify enough, my post was more aimed at newbies, here and there, who will watch some video of some reefer who say he dont do water changes, and decide that they will not do water changes...

And, hope that someone would agree, theres too many videos that advocate some product, method or similar, any of them either could work, or give newbies a lot of unecessary product.....

Even for older aquarist, its easy to fall into trap after watching youtube, and do things that he knows that are simply stupid.....
 

dvgyfresh

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I haven’t water changed since April , I am trying to go as long as possible without lol , I dose trace elements / alk / cal / mg. For nutrient export I have a refugium in the sump and just throw out a bunch of chaeto / caulerpa daily or weekly depending of how fast it’s growing. If phosphate is creeping too high I have lanthium chloride I can use in the skimmer ( haven’t used in months). This pic is from today , I was too lazy to clean glass
 

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Ocean’s Piece

Ocean’s Piece

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I haven’t water changed since April , I am trying to go as long as possible without lol , I dose trace elements / alk / cal / mg. For nutrient export I have a refugium in the sump and just throw out a bunch of chaeto / caulerpa daily or weekly depending of how fast it’s growing. If phosphate is creeping too high I have lanthium chloride I can use in the skimmer ( haven’t used in months). This pic is from today , I was too lazy to clean glass
Looking great!
 

dvgyfresh

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I should also add , I have never cleaned the sump once , I believe all that gunk/mud/mulm actually benefits the tank and keeps food in the food web for microorganisms such as pods /phyto / worms / brittle star / feather dusters / sponges. The key to my method is having the necessary organisms to help it along , I also never cleaned my sand bed / vacuum tank
 
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Ocean’s Piece

Ocean’s Piece

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Thanks ! Things might be different if I was sps focused tho! Haha
That’s why I don’t plan on doing a lot of SPS. Most LPS and softies are so flexible. SPS need all these specific measures done in order to have a coral that won’t just decide to die one day, sometimes for no reason it feels. Just not my tank style. Something I also hate is how certain people make this hobby look very difficult from the outside because of the immense care and caution these SPS dominant tanks require since they’re so finicky. It makes LPS and Softies tanks seem hard from a newcomer perspective and leads to new hobbyists especially wasting time, money, and energy on their tanks for things it doesn’t need. Don’t get me wrong, SPS tanks can look incredible, just not my cup of tea.
check out my 40g thread. I’ve been impressed with not doing water changes.
Could you link it to this thread? You haven’t made your build thread tag yet.
 

HomebroodExotics

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That’s why I don’t plan on doing a lot of SPS. Most LPS and softies are so flexible. SPS need all these specific measures done in order to have a coral that won’t just decide to die one day, sometimes for no reason it feels. Just not my tank style. Something I also hate is how certain people make this hobby look very difficult from the outside because of the immense care and caution these SPS dominant tanks require since they’re so finicky. It makes LPS and Softies tanks seem hard from a newcomer perspective and leads to new hobbyists especially wasting time, money, and energy on their tanks for things it doesn’t need. Don’t get me wrong, SPS tanks can look incredible, just not my cup of tea.

Could you link it to this thread? You haven’t made your build thread tag yet.
Sure thing https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/4...da-doing-everything-wrong.878434/post-9762744
 

Koh23

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I believe i posted this somewhere, this tank was active many many years ago....

54l, diy led light, no dosing, no aditives, nothing but quality live rock, healty microfauna, and of course, water changes, 5l every week.....

And this tank is only few months old, when this pic is taken....
 

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mattdg

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I tried the NWC route. Was okay, but honestly a lot more work keeping up with trace levels, than just doing weekly water changes. It was easy for the first few months. Got much trickier after that. Auto water changes have made my system more stable, than than it has ever been.
 

reef x corals

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Just keep in mind that ICP, even if accurate, is not detecting a main reason I recommend water changes: to keep organics from accumulating. All methods of organic removal are only able to remove a portion of the types of organics present, and some may just accumulate.
Just keep in mind that ICP, even if accurate, is not detecting a main reason I recommend water changes: to keep organics from accumulating. All methods of organic removal are only able to remove a portion of the types of organics present, and some may just accumulate.
Hi Randy! Hope all is well! Thank you so much for what you do for the reef community! I have a question and want to see if you can message me privately! It would definitely mean a lot to me! Thank you!!!
 
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Ocean’s Piece

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For those that were concerned with this video and how others will view it, in particularly, newcomers, I have updated the video description (all caps) and pinned a comment that this method is currently in the works, is not the best method, encouraging to do research and do water changes when it’s needed, and if they’re to go about doing this method, they should do it with extreme caution, all things I genuinely believe in. I hope I didn’t cause too much disturbance amongst some people and we can continue to share what our methods are for nutrient import and export.
 
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Jw258

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I dose all for reef and drop iodine and Potassium by hand. I do 20% watsr changes twice a month. I use TMPR salt now.

When I was running an sps pico, I did water changes every 3 days so that I could feed and stock heavy and I got better colouration. I was using a different salt at that time, being AquaForest Reef and dosing kalkwasser only.

I'm considering going back to AquaForest Reef but will try more PAR for colouration before I change salts.
 
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I dose all for reef and drop iodine and Potassium by hand. I do 20% watsr changes twice a month. I use TMPR salt now.

When I was running an sps pico, I did water changes every 3 days so that I could feed and stock heavy and I got better colouration. I was using a different salt at that time, being AquaForest Reef and dosing kalkwasser only.

I'm considering going back to AquaForest Reef but will try more PAR for colouration before I change salts.
Gosh, I couldn’t imagine every 3 days honestly. Just for me at least. I know people do it all the time with picos especially. That’s an impressive feat to be able to keep good looking SPS in a pico so keep it up!
 

Timfish

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Water changes are the only way to get rid of the hydrophilic DOC that isn't removed by skimmers and GAC. Additionally, since corals and algae are promoting different types of microbial processes in the water through different forms of DOC they are releasing by redusing all the types of microbes in the water water changes allow have the potential of assisting corals in maintaing the microbial processes beneficial to them.

Here's links to some of the science:

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)

Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes
 
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