Do you know what a DSB is and should you or does it even matter?

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/so-i-didnt-rinse.592624/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sandbed-stirred-up.544852/#post-5723606

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/very-cloudy-water-after-sand-and-rock.559386/#post-5735864
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/question-about-vacuuming-sand-bed.616059/ https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-tank-milky-cloudy.616519/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/cloudy-tank.576835/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bummer-could-use-some-help.558301/

we pre rinse to get opposite of that

we also have many examples of post install / no pre rinse rock slides causing headaches in our rinse thread.

pre rinsing is the best option for the masses, when you want controlled outcomes logged. we describe flocculant use as the first back seating learned in deep sand bedding, leading up to the usual invasions

pre rinsing is the first non hesitation, deliberate action, leading to a controlled outcome for many by showing them early guiding benefits.

Do not think Im being contrary for the sake of it, Im relaying the differences between studying sandbeds in a home where we control all variables and impart our own talents unspoken vs how it plays out when you work in other's sandbeds in logged forum work.



sandbeds have wildly varying outcomes after a few years or during move prep time, ergo nobody wants the sting accountability of asking a bunch of people to send them sand challenges live time. I wanted to show the other side of deep sandbeds, the risk side. the loss and noncompliant side is important to see when planning setups, especially large ones.

 

[vlangel]

I always have DSBs in all my tanks except my seahorse tanks. I worked for a lfs and my boss set up tanks for folks and had a maintenance service for those folks if they wanted. He always set up DSBs for the denitrification it offered. That lfs closed a few years ago but I am still good friends with one of our customers and I serviced her tank myself. She has a 250g AGA with a 70g sump. Her tank has a 5-6" sandbed and a large amount of live rock. It was set up 2001 and it has large angels, (regal, emporer), large puffers,( porkipine, dogface, and stars and stripes), some big wrasses, some large tangs, (a naso, a powder blue, and a yellow), some clownfish, and some cardinalfish. A few of these fish are the originals. Anyway the sandbed is also the original and she has never had a problem and its almost 20 years old. My boss set up a lot of these tanks and hers is not the only one still up and running. I am sold out that DSBs are a good thing for most marine fishtanks.

 

[rppvt]

I have designed and soon will be running a remote plenum. It will be approximately 50% of my displays surface area. It will be 4 inches of crushed coral 3-5 mm grain size. 6-8 inches of water will slowly flow over the substrate. Will be cryptic. This plenum will be for a 650 gallon system and be comprised of two stacked 50 gallon Rubbermaid stock tanks. This design is based on previous experience of a smaller scale plenum (which I made some mistakes), readings of articles by Goemans and Gamble and personal conversation with Goemans. I will be detailing every aspect of the system on my build thread.

I really want to follow that thread, as I love DSBs and my new refugium will be a huge rubbermaid with a DSB and turtle grass.

 

[Doctorgori]

I always ran a SSB or prefer BB. But since I got into anemones I now cheat and have a DSB only where the anemones will be. The rest is BB so that I can siphon detritus out.

Slick .... and not sarcasm either .... slick!

 

[ceruleanspiral]

There are a few critters I would like to have that require a deeper sand bed, like in the 4-6" range. I will keep doing more research before I attempt all that. I have at least a couple of years before I will be in a position to try it, so I have plenty of time.

 

[mfinn]

Back in the 80's and 90's DSB's were normal. At least all the ones I had and the ones I saw at friends houses.
I switched to the Jaubert plenum DSB for about 4 years.

 

[Auquanut]

When I first set up the tank, the sand was about 2 1/2 to 3 inches deep. Thanks to my engineer gobies, I now have a bare bottom, DSB, and everything in between. I occasionally vacuum what I can and hope for the best.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I voted: not a good idea.

A DSB is considered to be a passive bio-filter with an increased denitrification capacity. The water exchange rate will be determent for the filtration capacity. It is a passive filtration method which means nothing can be managed.

The denitrification in the filter bed will mainly take place in the upper layers of the bed where the water exchange is sufficient and nitrification can take place. The return can be up to around 16% denitrified of the present nitrate.
In the deeper layers, where no nitrification takes place, big anoxic zones may be created but the water exchange is low. The return can be up to 100% denitrified of the present nitrate. Organics will be remineralized anaerobically but the risk for HS can not be oxidized due to the lack of available nitrate in the deeper anoxic zones is always present. If such an HS polluted bed is then mixed up by habitants this may create serious problems.
Not a good idea to have a DSB in the display tank of a mixed reef.
The denitrification capacity of a DSB and the total filter capacity is mainly dependent on the upper 2 cm and the layers in contact with the water column. I would limit it to an SB.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I have never used a deep sandbed in my salt water setups. Just enough for wrasses and the aesthetics of sand.
I am not sure the benefit matches the work to remove if it went awry, is why.
i do use a deep sand bed in my planted tank. But this is for far different reasons of wanting a nutrients and carbon source. Its also half sand and half flourite.
i do use a deep sand bed in my planted tank. But this is for far different reasons of wanting a nutrients and carbon source. Its also half sand and half flourite.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

In Europe, during the '70s and '80s, it was advised to avoid DSB in a display tank. Anoxic conditions had to be avoided as much as possible. In Europe, big aerobic-based bio-filters were used for marine aquaria based on the publication of F.De Graaf, that time conservator of Artis Aquarium, Amsterdam. ( FDeGraaf1969: Frank De Graaf. Handboek voor het tropisch zeeaquarium. Tweede druk. A.J.G. Strengholt N.V. Amsterdam, 1969.) also published in the US. (FDeGraaf1973: Graaf, Frank de. Marine Aquarium Guide. Harrison, N.J.: Pet Library, 1973.) Also so-called " bottom filters" were generally used for smaller aquaria, maintained at a high flow rate with the intention to avoid anoxic conditions.
Such filters promote active filtration and can still be very valuable as they can be managed.

The first to advise and promote anaerobic denitrification for marine aquaria must be Jaubert.
Jaubert's plenum is a "bottom filter" with a very low water exchange rate, promoting anaerobic denitrification.

 

[DSC reef]

I ran both, never had issues with either if maintained properly and bare bottom didn't cure algae problems. Sand bed always looked clean

 

[outerbank]

DSBs work great for nitrate reduction. I have had my current DSB for 11 years and it’s my only filtration. It’s in a 75 gallon tank as a sump/refugium. Wish I had it in the DT but opted for BB when I set up the DT because I thought I might move. They are another thing to deal with when moving. Had one in a DT for 7 years before that.

 

[brandon429]

If we search out purchasers and dosers of nitrate reducing items like no pox, if the majority are sandbedding while they have to dose it what’s the cause for them and why the variation

Same for vodka dosers, I’m seeing how many are sandbed vs bare bottom just in basic searches
it seems sand-in is more common as people rarely start with a bare bottom system, they arrive at them

 

[DSC reef]

If we search out purchasers and dosers of nitrate reducing items like no pox, if the majority are sandbedding while they have to dose it, what’s the cause for them and why the variation

Same for vodka dosers, I’m seeing how many are sandbed vs bare bottom just in basic searches it seems sand-in is more common as people rarely start with a bare bottom system, they arrive at them.

Never dosed any nitrate reducers with a sand bed in the 125

 

[brandon429]

I know, me neither. I’m using searches to see that mostly everyone else who doses it in recent threads has sand. The use of sand still outweighs bare bottom in sampled threads for sure

What’s making one segment of sandbedders totally successful / no invasion / perfect params while another group of users has to buy more offsets or clean / remove the bed? Maybe age of tank during evaluation period matters, fish loading etc...a lot of variables to align

Sandbedding hasn’t had any downsides listed here, what are possible downsides other than outcome guaranteed positive->just add sand literally nothing bad occurs. Sixty thousand sandbed removers recall their toils leading up to the removal, they want the ease portrayed here...the set and go self cleaning setup.

There is a large swath of people who do not think sandbedding in display works as claimed, that’s not flammage it’s just a data set with lots of participants. They couldn’t attain lower nutrients or get free of an invasion without cleaning or removal, what makes non compliant examples occur/things to avoid

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

What do you mean by the word "sandbedding"?

 

[brandon429]

Using any sand vs bare bottom. The theme I’m getting from pages here is that sandbeds reduce nitrate and have low downsides, having sand in the tank handles fish waste in ways that prevent buildup. There is no consensus on depth required, so any use of sand seems to start the listed benefits.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

The big difference between promoting denitrification or the assimilation of nitrogen ( vodka, nopox, algae scrubber), in a closed system using a skimmer, is the fact the nutrient balance ( N ratio) can be restored by denitrification, not by assimilation.
A SB of +- 2 cm may have about the same denitrification capacity as a DSB without the risks involved.
As a DSB is a passive method, nothing can be managed. The denitrification capacity is unknown and limited.
If I have the need for removing a lot of safely stored nitrogen considered not needed I prefer to use active denitrification, giving the possibility for managing the removal rate.

 

[Lasse]

For the books - In order to maintain a good denitrification - a source of DOC (dissolved organic carbon) is needed (often methanol or ethanol ) - not mainly for the assimilation growth but for the anaerobic respiration there they serve as electron donors (nitrate is a electron acceptor in that process).

And there is no dubt that both DSB and different types of variation of it works - the dutch DyMiCo system is one working variant of DSB but it is an active system. My system is also a variant - and active

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Glenn Etchart]

I would argue that if you have the space a remote deep sand bed could be valuable but in tank, with all the livestock constantly providing detritus, it’s asking for problems.

I am considering for a future build, after all mechanics and chemical filtration to have a refugium / DSB as part of my denitrification process.


I have had DSB tank for 20 years with great success. with regular water changes and some bottom sifters. Crabs, Wrasses starfish, blennies and many others. The tank also will be home to subsurface dwellers without problems. You need to do tank maintenance regularly but for the most part they take care of themselves. I do not do water testing just add the same amount of nutrients on a semi regular schedule and have never had a problem with die off or destabilization of tank and occupants. It grows it's own Sponges,tube worms and feather dusters. Just hang on protein skimmer and eheim canister filter on 125 gallon acrylic tank and everyone is happy and looks great.