Dr. Reef sent me EXTRA fish, what should I do.

[twentyleagues]

He is being honest about the mortality rate of sensitive fish. Shipping (any fish) is brutal.

You are taking a fish that has been plucked from the ocean, more than likely captured with cyanide, percussion or electric shock…

Tossed in a live well, where many die during the trip…

Netted and dumped into a dirty holding tank where more perish…

Netted again and bagged and boxed for shipment…

Rough handling and van ride….

Loading dock…

Airplanes and rough handling….

Loading dock….

Local carrier or pickup at airport…

Dumped again and QT in a bare tank…

Netted again bagged and boxed…

Van ride to local hub….

Loading docks and another rough airplane trip….

Local carrier and rough handling….

Your doorstep….

Your tank and floating and dumping and maybe more bare QT or tiny acclimation box…

Dark, light, living in their own waste, often with a dead fish or more, being shaken and handled rough, exposed to giant temp swings, stress and lack of food, compromised immune systems, a total nightmare any way you slice it.

It is insanely amazing that ANY of them make it.

Your “LFS” deals with the same or higher DOA rate and provides far less care than you do, you just don’t see it. They dump piles of fish in the garbage daily, it is just part of the process.

I agree!
Working somewhere that got transshipped fish you had better be ready for a bad day when we went to pick up the shipment. It was amazing thinking what those fish and corals went through to get to the store.

The other store I worked at typically got from a distributer like quality marine or ora and now quite a bit of biota stuff it was a lot better but there are still causalities. Not that the other store didnt get from them too but wednesdays were not great lets just say.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I use Dr. Reef because I have no space or desire to run my own QT. It is a simple layer of reassurance for me that I have less chance of wiping out my tank.

 

[Fish Fan]

I'll continue to be transparent and informative to people that wanna know the reasoning behind it. We are not here to make everyone agree or expect everyone be understanding of our process but for the ones that do like to know the information is here available openly without hiding anything.
If you don't agree with our practices or business don't buy.

I don't think anywhere I forced anyone to come buy from us.

I will continue to qt and sell fish because qted livestock doesn't wipe out someone's entire tank.
I qm,sure people that has invested thousands of dollars in their tank and then lost their entire livestock can easily relate to me.
And from as many emails we get about wiped out tanks and dead fish, my 8.76% is nothing compared to that.
Have you ever heard of the phrase " you got to lose some to win some"

And I wish you luck.

 

[EliMelly]

I use Dr. Reef because I have no space or desire to run my own QT. It is a simple layer of reassurance for me that I have less chance of wiping out my tank.

Same here! Plus he has the best customer service in the business. I know that if anything happens, even if it’s my fault he will help me out!

 

[Fish Fan]

I imagine if one starts a multi page rant about receiving an unsolicited email from a sponsor/vendor, they for sure should about receiving an extra fish.

You got me there, but if that's what you took away from my quite popular post, you missed the whole point ;-)

 

[Dr. Reef]

You do know he will hold fish after the initial quarantine - either 60 or 90 days IIRC. Next time you order from him just ask him to hold them another couple weeks.

This is literally one of the best vendors I have ever seen in the hobby (and I have been in it for just over 30 years). He is active on the forums, takes suggestions, adjusts his business practices quickly to adjust to customer needs, always makes orders right if there are issues, and the list goes on and on.

If you don't like how he conducts business that's your prerogative but its a simple fact of life that you cant please everyone all the time.

Mike - I worked for a aquarium maintenance company back in the day and we ordered our fish from Quality Marine. Not sure today but back then they were the best in the business. Our mortality rate was about 15% so you being under 10% is fantastic, keep up the good work.

We buy a lot from QM. In fact we are in top 5 in their mom and pop category. They have improved a lot on their shipping and delivery. When we forst started I flew out to LAX and visited QM at least 7 or 8 times. I learnt all the fish maintenance and how to house them how to bag them how to ship them. I bought all the same equipment and tools they have.
I am so happy for Robert (my rep) and QM in general to teach me the commercial side of the hobby. Without them opening their doors to me and teaching me and letting me come in many times to see things first hard, I wouldn't even know how to begin.
Anyways losses across the wholesalers and I deal with about a dozen of them is about 10-15%.

 

[djkms]

We buy a lot from QM. In fact we are in top 5 in their mom and pop category. They have improved a lot on their shipping and delivery. When we forst started I flew out to LAX and visited QM at least 7 or 8 times. I learnt all the fish maintenance and how to house them how to bag them how to ship them. I bought all the same equipment and tools they have.
I am so happy for Robert (my rep) and QM in general to teach me the commercial side of the hobby. Without them opening their doors to me and teaching me and letting me come in many times to see things first hard, I wouldn't even know how to begin.
Anyways losses across the wholesalers and I deal with about a dozen of them is about 10-15%.

I was able to get a behind the scenes tour of QM as well when I went out to LA prior to COVID. Really cool experience and one of the most memorable things I Have done in the hobby.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

I use Dr. Reef because I have no space or desire to run my own QT. It is a simple layer of reassurance for me that I have less chance of wiping out my tank.

That’s a double for me. Blind as a bat with neuro motor issues. Qt is out of my realm. I’ve lost a few fish over the years (age related) and was completely paralyzed at the thought of replacing/adding any. I held off for years. Solely based off of comments from people like you, and Dr reefs reply’s to the good, bad and ugly, I recently decided to give it a go. He was awesome to deal with via email. I , just three or four weeks ago, got a Copperband, flame angel, flame hawk, and four pajama cardinals (scratch that, five as heaven forbid an extra was included). They went straight into an acclimation box for 24hour and then I let them free. This was something that I was scared absolutely sh**less of doing in my condition. I would not hesitate, for a second, to do it again. Granted, it was not without issue. I did lose a long time resident male clown of a bonded pair due to bullying from (I assume) the hawk. I was saddened by that. Poor fish depended on me to watch out and separate in that scenario and I failed.

 

[jmcdona6]

Tough crowd. I agree adding a question would be a good improvement.

I think a little perspective is in order here though.

(1) Most vendors out there, online or LFS, are pet mills. They market livestock that they know are from compromised sources (because most are compromised). Most use sub-therapeutic hypo and copper to suppress disease just long enough for you to buy them. The good stores educate you on QT or at least the risk of not doing so...but many don't. They do this with a smile while you walk out the door.

(2) Dr. Reef is not perfect. But he is upfront about his processes. He is doing what he can to quarantine your fish and take on the majority of the initial holding risk. Yes, fish still DOA. Yes, fish still die after arrival. I have had it happen personally (just outside the guarantee window...even more unfortunate). But he always works with you, often beyond what would be considered good business sense. You are twisted if you equate the risks of post-QT stress survival and Dr. Reef's service with the irresponsible market in point #1.

(3) Dr. Reef does it while having very customer friendly pricing, variety and experience. Their sales form already asks more questions than any other vendor online to make sure your order is right. They consult with you on delivery. They update you throughout the way. They don't charge until ready to ship. They basically offer any fish you could want providing unparalleled variety. I had an issue pop up and Dr. Reef responded to me on a Sunday night helping take care of my situation.

I have bought livestock from probably over two dozen sources by now. Other than Marine Collectors, I am not sure I would put any above Dr. Reef. Even Marine Collectors, their pricing makes it a tough value proposition.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

You got me there, but if that's what you took away from my quite popular post, you missed the whole point ;-)

This was a bit of tongue in cheek and not meant as a personal attack. I did get the point of the thread I mentioned and applaud you for continuing to clear the air in regards to how the email came about and that your/our info is not being sold by the forum. I know the thread kinda ran away after that. While I understand the premise for that thread (info possibly being sold/shared) and (I think) your premise here (we probably shouldn’t be shipping sensitive fish), are fair points. Putting vendor x on blast for being transparent, I don’t agree with. If you were to put the entire hobby on blast, I would be more inclined to stand with you. The hobby in general is sickening when you peel back the curtain. I don’t believe for a second that there is a vendor out there that could tout zero loss. I also get the point of not wanting or being able to house/rehome an unwanted extra fish. Early in this thread Dr reef took that feedback and made changes to the site so that one can elect to not have extras sent.

 

[jhadaway]

I'll say it again, I've had great experiences with Dr. Reef. QT'ing isn't something I ever want to do again. Communication isn't always perfect but a few people running an honest business that can't be easy to run gets some slack from me. I'll be stocking my 235gal soon with them.

 

[SpyC]

You do know he will hold fish after the initial quarantine - either 60 or 90 days IIRC. Next time you order from him just ask him to hold them another couple weeks.

This is literally one of the best vendors I have ever seen in the hobby (and I have been in it for just over 30 years). He is active on the forums, takes suggestions, adjusts his business practices quickly to adjust to customer needs, always makes orders right if there are issues, and the list goes on and on.

If you don't like how he conducts business that's your prerogative but its a simple fact of life that you cant please everyone all the time.

Mike - I worked for a aquarium maintenance company back in the day and we ordered our fish from Quality Marine. Not sure today but back then they were the best in the business. Our mortality rate was about 15% so you being under 10% is fantastic, keep up the good work.

A hold should be built in for these sensitive fish and not a special request.

I wouldn't say always makes orders right. I had an order that was over 50% doa then the rest made it another day. I always had a doa in every order. At first the policy was very friendly, but then it became only doing store credit agter I placed my order but prior to shipping. This was so before changes were made to the shipping practice and I did not want to order more fish immediately after such a bad experience. It was a fight to get the doa policy at the time of the order honored.

Always preferred ERI for our fish orders. The sensitive fish never had issues making it to us. And we also had an extremely low DOA and 14 week death rate.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Always preferred ERI for our fish orders. The sensitive fish never had issues making it to us. And we also had an extremely low DOA and 14 week death rate.

ERI is SDC now and wholesale shipping is much different than carrier shipping. Cant even compare them.
Wholesalers ship cargo. They pack the fish in the early morning hours at normally 4am and have them boxed and at the airports by 10am and by 5-9pm they are at their destinations. And in between they are in a cargo holding facily that is climate controlled and no one is touching or moving the boxes constantly. they go from the cargo counter to a trolly and sit in temp controlled warehouse till a tug/tractor comes pulls the trolly to the airplane. there they go in the belly of the plane in an climate controlled area where all pets or perishables are stored. They fly and land at the destination and are trollyed to the destination cargo warehouse where we pick them up from.
Bare minimum movement and temp controll all the way, all in few hours.

Ups/Fedex, totally different story, they get baged abd boxed picked up by the driver at 2pm then they ride around till hes done delivering all his mail. Once he turns the truck in at hub loaders unload and throw boxes out of the truck on convayer like someone beating a rag dog. At the end of the convayer sorting they meet the same treatment for the second time to get loaded on to a big rig to be transported to airport. ALl that in a open warehouse with 20 bay doors open forcing the climate to have effect on the boxes. If poor fish by this time doesnt have the headache, non temp control envirenment starts to take a hold.
Then they fly to a main distribution hub, Kentacky for UPS, TN for Fedex. They again they are tossed around from trucks to belts and move around sorting through the night and then tossed back into trucks to be soon loaded to a plane by 5-6am in the morning. After that they fly to respective state to be tossed out of the plane to trucks to a nearest hub to be tossed to smaller regional truck where they drive around for hours signseeing before getting to your delivery address.

So as you see the 2 are not the same and there are less dead fish in cargo due to less time in transit, direct and more professional service and less handling.

 

[Fish Fan]

This was a bit of tongue in cheek and not meant as a personal attack. I did get the point of the thread I mentioned and applaud you for continuing to clear the air in regards to how the email came about and that your/our info is not being sold by the forum. I know the thread kinda ran away after that. While I understand the premise for that thread (info possibly being sold/shared) and (I think) your premise here (we probably shouldn’t be shipping sensitive fish), are fair points. Putting vendor x on blast for being transparent, I don’t agree with. If you were to put the entire hobby on blast, I would be more inclined to stand with you. The hobby in general is sickening when you peel back the curtain. I don’t believe for a second that there is a vendor out there that could tout zero loss. I also get the point of not wanting or being able to house/rehome an unwanted extra fish. Early in this thread Dr reef took that feedback and made changes to the site so that one can elect to not have extras sent.

I appreciate your reply and points, and don't feel attacked at all. I don't believe I've "blasted" anyone either. The OP posted the information, in an applauded effort to be transparent, and I reacted to that information.

I will say, I think both here and in my thread you're citing, people are willing to overlook certain potential negatives because a seller "means well" or is "a good guy", and I get that.

I also fully understand those reefers that don't want to QT their own fish for any number of reasons, though I'm not one of them. I appreciate that those reefers are not completely ignoring the idea of QT'ing fish, and there's not a whole lot of options (yet) for reefers like this. Perhaps Dr. Reef is filling a needed niche here.

Consider this though:
Dr. Reef gets the fish wholesale, which is super stressful, and certainly there will be loses. Then, he QT's the fish, which is stressful, and finally then he ships the fish to you, which is very, very stressful.

On the other hand, my LFS (don't forget to support your local LFS, right??) gets their fish wholesale, which is stressful, and there will be loses, as above. But, now they have a chance to keep and feed the fish for some time, and I can observe that the fish is at least fat and happy, even if riddled in parasites. A quick hour or so later, and that fish is in my QT tank. The QT process is stressful, but I've had very good luck with it using CopperPower following the Jay Hemdal guide here at R2R. After QT, the fish go into my display.

It would just seem that doing it the "old fashioned" way is the least stressful on the fish compared to shipping, QT'ing, and shipping again.

 

[SpyC]

ERI is SDC now and wholesale shipping is much different than carrier shipping. Cant even compare them.
Wholesalers ship cargo. They pack the fish in the early morning hours at normally 4am and have them boxed and at the airports by 10am and by 5-9pm they are at their destinations. And in between they are in a cargo holding facily that is climate controlled and no one is touching or moving the boxes constantly. they go from the cargo counter to a trolly and sit in temp controlled warehouse till a tug/tractor comes pulls the trolly to the airplane. there they go in the belly of the plane in an climate controlled area where all pets or perishables are stored. They fly and land at the destination and are trollyed to the destination cargo warehouse where we pick them up from.
Bare minimum movement and temp controll all the way, all in few hours.

Ups/Fedex, totally different story, they get baged abd boxed picked up by the driver at 2pm then they ride around till hes done delivering all his mail. Once he turns the truck in at hub loaders unload and throw boxes out of the truck on convayer like someone beating a rag dog. At the end of the convayer sorting they meet the same treatment for the second time to get loaded on to a big rig to be transported to airport. ALl that in a open warehouse with 20 bay doors open forcing the climate to have effect on the boxes. If poor fish by this time doesnt have the headache, non temp control envirenment starts to take a hold.
Then they fly to a main distribution hub, Kentacky for UPS, TN for Fedex. They again they are tossed around from trucks to belts and move around sorting through the night and then tossed back into trucks to be soon loaded to a plane by 5-6am in the morning. After that they fly to respective state to be tossed out of the plane to trucks to a nearest hub to be tossed to smaller regional truck where they drive around for hours signseeing before getting to your delivery address.

So as you see the 2 are not the same and there are less dead fish in cargo due to less time in transit, direct and more professional service and less handling.

I was responding to the person I quoted regarding QM and their experiences. I understand there are differences in the shipping and fish will go through more stress with one over the other.

 

[jmcdona6]

I appreciate your reply and points, and don't feel attacked at all. I don't believe I've "blasted" anyone either. The OP posted the information, in an applauded effort to be transparent, and I reacted to that information.

I will say, I think both here and in my thread you're citing, people are willing to overlook certain potential negatives because a seller "means well" or is "a good guy", and I get that.

I also fully understand those reefers that don't want to QT their own fish for any number of reasons, though I'm not one of them. I appreciate that those reefers are not completely ignoring the idea of QT'ing fish, and there's not a whole lot of options (yet) for reefers like this. Perhaps Dr. Reef is filling a needed niche here.

Consider this though:
Dr. Reef gets the fish wholesale, which is super stressful, and certainly there will be loses. Then, he QT's the fish, which is stressful, and finally then he ships the fish to you, which is very, very stressful.

On the other hand, my LFS (don't forget to support your local LFS, right??) gets their fish wholesale, which is stressful, and there will be loses, as above. But, now they have a chance to keep and feed the fish for some time, and I can observe that the fish is at least fat and happy, even if riddled in parasites. A quick hour or so later, and that fish is in my QT tank. The QT process is stressful, but I've had very good luck with it using CopperPower following the Jay Hemdal guide here at R2R. After QT, the fish go into my display.

It would just seem that doing it the "old fashioned" way is the least stressful on the fish compared to shipping, QT'ing, and shipping again.

I agree the best method would be one that cuts out as much middle men as possible and/or allows the fish to recover between steps (sort of like what happens at the LFS). Then you transport them with care to your home and QT them. Allow them to recover afterwards in a safe acclimation environment, then introduce to your tank. Many high end QT fish sellers force you to go air cargo pick-up for this reason.

Of course (A) a lot of people don't have the time, experience or resources to QT (B) many that think they do, don't and end up screwing it up to the detriment of their fish or tank or (C) don't actually do it at all...they might observe them for some time but ultimately introduce without any real QT.

Personally fall somewhere in category A. I've done it. Probably could do it again in a reasonably quality manner. But don't have the time or desire to invest in the space to get back into that game again.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

I appreciate your reply and points, and don't feel attacked at all. I don't believe I've "blasted" anyone either. The OP posted the information, in an applauded effort to be transparent, and I reacted to that information.

I will say, I think both here and in my thread you're citing, people are willing to overlook certain potential negatives because a seller "means well" or is "a good guy", and I get that.

I also fully understand those reefers that don't want to QT their own fish for any number of reasons, though I'm not one of them. I appreciate that those reefers are not completely ignoring the idea of QT'ing fish, and there's not a whole lot of options (yet) for reefers like this. Perhaps Dr. Reef is filling a needed niche here.

Consider this though:
Dr. Reef gets the fish wholesale, which is super stressful, and certainly there will be loses. Then, he QT's the fish, which is stressful, and finally then he ships the fish to you, which is very, very stressful.

On the other hand, my LFS (don't forget to support your local LFS, right??) gets their fish wholesale, which is stressful, and there will be loses, as above. But, now they have a chance to keep and feed the fish for some time, and I can observe that the fish is at least fat and happy, even if riddled in parasites. A quick hour or so later, and that fish is in my QT tank. The QT process is stressful, but I've had very good luck with it using CopperPower following the Jay Hemdal guide here at R2R. After QT, the fish go into my display.

It would just seem that doing it the "old fashioned" way is the least stressful on the fish compared to shipping, QT'ing, and shipping again.

Depends on the lfs, if there’s even an lfs nearby to all, and if the person is competent/willing enough to monitor/qt on their own. In a perfect world I guess. When I had a great lfs, I supported them profusely. When I moved to a new area, I supported the lfs profusely….right up until the fish were obviously ill, had dead fish floating in multiple displays , the tanks were riddled with cyano, bryopsis, aiptasia and the manager asked a young employee to “grab that eel and throw it in the trash before it spreads” for all the customers to hear and watch. I would venture to say that despite all the YouTube’s out there, most hobbyists are ill equipped to properly qt on their own. The lfs I purchased my current tank (almost everything including livestock) lost me when they refused to allow me to use uber to pick up dry goods/frozen food (I can’t drive….well I can but you all should get out the way!) they are about a 40 minute drive each way, so an uber for me would be a hundred bucks, plus I’d be a liability trying to navigate on their wet epoxy floors. A $50 uber pickup for dry goods (especially frozen) was a price I was willing to pay. The owner in as few words, said that they hate to lose business but could not afford to put orders together and deal with uber drivers. So yeah, support your lfs (if you have a good one). Let the bad ones die on the vine.

 

[blecki]

Well I've got about a 25% survival rate on fish from my lfs. Worse than petco. I don't buy from them anymore. Meanwhile - something like, out of 25ish fish from Dr Reef, I've lost 4? And 2 of those were because the other fish decided to beat them up. Plus everytime I lose a fish from the LFS in quarantine I have to assume the QT is infected and break it down and still have the risk of infecting the other tanks etc etc etc.

Frankly you're paying a little more for risk mitigation. Dr Reef is taking on almost all the risk of the wild caught imported fish where as your LFS is trying to move the fish as quickly as possible to put the risk on you.

 

[teaktoc]

I have placed at least three orders with Dr. Reef and all have had an extra (at least one fish) per order. Oddly, the extra enters the system, is around a few days while the others are in hiding and then the others come out and the extra is never seen again alive or dead.

All-in-all, I go to Dr. Reef for healthy quarantined fish every time I shop online for what is not locally available.

Hi Everyone
This concern has been brought up a few times on different forums and also emailed to us regularly.

Answer to this question is:
We do ship extra fish on some species that do not ship well. For example: Chromis, Lyretail or dispar Anthia, Green Clown Gobies, Yellow coris wrasse, Melanarus wrasse, carpenter or Mccosker wrasse to name a few.
Reasoning is they dont ship well so we ship extra. When you place an order for example for 1 yellow coris, we reserve 2 in your name out of our inventory. If 1 doesnt survive the qt process we have a backup and you dont lose time waiting for a 2nd one to come and wait another 30 days. So mutliple fish are reserved for you. Once we ship we ship extra of that fish so in case 1 doesnt make shipping atleast you have a backup.

Now to the question what if both make it and I dont have room to keep both.
What we recommend is to keep 1 healthier/active looking fish in the main tank and other in acclimation box or sump or in a area where you can grab it back out easily. After 1 week has passed and you are comfortable to say one in main tank will settle and live well then take the extra one and give/gift/sell the other one to local fish store or fellow reefer or donate it to schools/aquariums/zoo's or another place where they can accomodate a fish. If all efforts fail keep it in the sump till you can find a home for it.
Normally your reserved fish would have been qted together, so likley they might coexist but not a guarantee.

Why do we do this?
Well no one likes to lose fish, Unfortunately it happens in shipping with some fragile fish. If you were to order and receive dead fish after waiting for a month it would not be a good expereince. Then you will have to wait another 30-45 days to receive a replacement which will also not leave a good taste, Also as a business point of view its cheaper to ship an extra fish than to pay for shipping, use more resources like labor, effort, packing material and sticker labels etc all over again to replace what we already know might be a problem shipping.

We are always looking for better source for these fish and once we do find a good source then extra fish will go away on that species.

If you have any more questions or concerns please feel free to ask, We are very transparent on what we do and how we do it and if there is a problem or issue we do our best to make it right for you,

You will find our customer service top knotch.
Like Mike (dr. reef) always says, Hes not in it for money, rather passion for the hobby he has.

 

[mehaffydr]

Some wrasses do not get along well with each other and will need to be kept separate permanently. Nearly any fish is large in a 5"x6" section of a sump

You could just put it in classifieds for free. Someone will take it.