Dwarf angel pairs

OrionN · Mar 22, 2019

Live Aquaria have Flame angels for sale this week. Medium for 47.99 I think

dieselkeeper · Mar 22, 2019

@pcon Are there anything to look for in sexing a coral beauty?

mattzang · Mar 22, 2019

you could grab some captive bred ones i think they sell them pretty young

Jase4224 · Mar 22, 2019

dieselkeeper said:
@pcon Are there anything to look for in sexing a coral beauty?

I’m still considering a pair of coral beauties also

pcon · Mar 22, 2019

Coral beauties only exhibit temporary sexual dimorphism during courtship, "Female loses black bars on sides and color fades." Size, age, and interactions are the best bets for guessing at sex of coral beauties. If you aren't planning on the extraordinary effort of breeding them then, I would suggest going with 2 captive bred ones. Otherwise just pick out a medium and a small one that look like they will get along, and get ready to pull them apart if it goes south. Sorta a numbers/luck game once you get your prep work done and actually put any two fish together. Had mean mean cherubs who got along great from the first moment, and Sexed Flames who killed each other.

Jase4224 · Mar 23, 2019

pcon said:
Coral beauties only exhibit temporary sexual dimorphism during courtship, "Female loses black bars on sides and color fades." Size, age, and interactions are the best bets for guessing at sex of coral beauties. If you aren't planning on the extraordinary effort of breeding them then, I would suggest going with 2 captive bred ones. Otherwise just pick out a medium and a small one that look like they will get along, and get ready to pull them apart if it goes south. Sorta a numbers/luck game once you get your prep work done and actually put any two fish together. Had mean mean cherubs who got along great from the first moment, and Sexed Flames who killed each other.

I don’t think I have access to captive bred coral beauties, but I certainly have access to different sizes and being in Oz fish tend to be in great condition due to a shorter supply chain and shipping times. I may still try this yet but not set on it. Thanks for the valuable information though :)

Ardeus · Jul 17, 2019

I have only 1 male flame angel in my 200 gallon tank, the female died when I upgraded a fews months ago from a 100 gallon cube. The male is very peaceful for dwarf angels standards.

I ordered another flame and I asked for the smallest one they had.

They also had a few heraldi and I read that they are on the mellow side. I went ahead and asked for 2: the largest and the smallest ones they had.

I just received the fish and the flame is small, really looks like a female, but the heraldi... they are both huge, much larger than the resident male flame. There's only a small difference in size between them.

They are in quarentine in a 48" x 20" x 20" tank, but the tank is only half full. They need to stay there for at least a week while I increase the salinity to match the DT.

What are the signs that it's time to separate the 2 heraldi?

They arrived just a few hours ago and I saw them flaring at each other, but now they're separated and it's dark. I guess tomorrow it will be the decisive day.

pcon · Jul 17, 2019

Ardeus said:
I have only 1 male flame angel in my 200 gallon tank, the female died when I upgraded a fews months ago from a 100 gallon cube. The male is very peaceful for dwarf angels standards.

I ordered another flame and I asked for the smallest one they had.

They also had a few heraldi and I read that they are on the mellow side. I went ahead and asked for 2: the largest and the smallest ones they had.

I just received the fish and the flame is small, really looks like a female, but the heraldi... they are both huge, much larger than the resident male flame. There's only a small difference in size between them.

They are in quarentine in a 48" x 20" x 20" tank, but the tank is only half full. They need to stay there for at least a week while I increase the salinity to match the DT.

What are the signs that it's time to separate the 2 heraldi?

They arrived just a few hours ago and I saw them flaring at each other, but now they're separated and it's dark. I guess tomorrow it will be the decisive day.

To your question:

I look for cornering, fin damage and chasing that lasts more than 5 seconds. Some chasing will occur but it should not be persistent, except when doing their prespawing and courting dances my established pairs rarely chase each other more than 2 full seconds, With my current pair it typically, one sees the other munching on their favorite sponge, they will dart over and scare the other off. This sort of behavior is normal, and exaggerated when forming a pair or when a pair is in a new environment. What you don't want to see is prolonged chasing where one is constantly dogging after the other. You don't want to see the chases escalate into fights where there is fin damage repeatedly. this might happen once or twice but should not occur frequently. For me the automatic pull the fish is when I see one of the two cornered by the other, either kept in one cave, at the surface, or in a corner of the tank. any of these are bad signs and with the cornering in particular I have never seen success, the fish always continued to fight.

Ardeus · Jul 17, 2019

Thanks, I will wake up early to check on them and see if I need to intervene.

OrionN · Jul 17, 2019

From the other thread:

I recently pay attention and increase my light during spawning and got some picture of the nuptial picture of male Flame Angel.
Normal coloration of my male Flame angel

Nuptial coloration of the same angel days apart

Ardeus · Jul 18, 2019

pcon said:
To your question:

I look for cornering, fin damage and chasing that lasts more than 5 seconds. Some chasing will occur but it should not be persistent, except when doing their prespawing and courting dances my established pairs rarely chase each other more than 2 full seconds, With my current pair it typically, one sees the other munching on their favorite sponge, they will dart over and scare the other off. This sort of behavior is normal, and exaggerated when forming a pair or when a pair is in a new environment. What you don't want to see is prolonged chasing where one is constantly dogging after the other. You don't want to see the chases escalate into fights where there is fin damage repeatedly. this might happen once or twice but should not occur frequently. For me the automatic pull the fish is when I see one of the two cornered by the other, either kept in one cave, at the surface, or in a corner of the tank. any of these are bad signs and with the cornering in particular I have never seen success, the fish always continued to fight.

Half a day has passed and it's not bad, they seem to be really mellow fish.

Although they are very close in size, the larger one has now a darker area around the eyes. He's not very aggressive towards the other.

Early in the morning they were flapping their tails against each other, but it seems they figured out their pecking order.

They mostly ignore the flame angel.

I hope they continue like this during the next days.

Ardeus · Jul 23, 2019

Here's how it went: yesterday I added 5 fish:

- 1 small flame angel
- 2 adult heraldi angels
- 1 yellow assessor
- 1 wheeleri goby

The 2 flames were fine immediately.

Yesterday the flame angel had the upper hand, today the heraldi's are at top of the hierarchy.

They really are mellow fish and they will be very benign bosses of the tank.

The thing that puzzles me is that both fish have dark patches on their eyes now, which should be the sign of a male, but they get along so well that I wonder how is this possible and what future lies ahead for these 2 fish concerning pairing or not.

pcon · Jul 23, 2019

Bi-directional sex change is possible in centropyge.

Ardeus · Jul 23, 2019

I know but I don't think it's common to go back.

I even read about a case where a large female was joined with a small male and they both changed sexes and paired up.

Just the same, I am sure going back to female is not something the eagerly do.

Elliott ll · Nov 25, 2021

I have a large male flame angel. Tried adding a coral beauty and my god... he relentlessly attacked it to death... I mean hunted him non freaking stop. He gets into little scuffles with all my tangs and any new fish he picks on. He's a bully... and I was about to get rid of him on multiple occasions. I somehow thought it was a good idea to order 4 more small flame angels wanting a harem of 5. 1 of those 4 turned out to be another decent size male, but smaller. The larger male put him in his place (really beat up his dorsal fin). The 2 smaller fish were chased a bit but he wasn't really that interested. After about a week only 1 of the smaller fish died but it didn't appear to be from aggression (disease or copper sensitivity).

Oddly my flame angels are getting along great after much time passed... No aggression, feed together, and often end up in same caves. I hate the number of 4 though so may add another female.

Jase4224 · Nov 28, 2021

Eusvolk93 said:
I have a large male flame angel. Tried adding a coral beauty and my god... he relentlessly attacked it to death... I mean hunted him non freaking stop. He gets into little scuffles with all my tangs and any new fish he picks on. He's a bully... and I was about to get rid of him on multiple occasions. I somehow thought it was a good idea to order 4 more small flame angels wanting a harem of 5. 1 of those 4 turned out to be another decent size male, but smaller. The larger male put him in his place (really beat up his dorsal fin). The 2 smaller fish were chased a bit but he wasn't really that interested. After about a week only 1 of the smaller fish died but it didn't appear to be from aggression (disease or copper sensitivity).

Oddly my flame angels are getting along great after much time passed... No aggression, feed together, and often end up in same caves. I hate the number of 4 though so may add another female.

Sorry to hear about your coral beauty, but that’s what I would expect based on my experience. I have a flame and a coral beauty together in a 6x2x2 and added them together along with a majestic angel. The majestic is the undisputed boss but not a horrible one. The flame however likes to remind the coral beauty whose boss at food time. I don’t know if flames are more aggressive or if it’s just that he’s bigger than the coral beauty. I would hate to add another angel to established angels though so I always add new fish in groups.

immaman2011 · Jul 30, 2022

pcon said:
It is perfectly possible to form and keep pairs of almost any Centropyge. There is some art in the process of forming pairs, and it is not always successful even when given perfect circumstances.

A Crash Course in Dwarf Angelfish Pairing
Let's start with the basics of Angelfish reproduction. All Centropyge are considered protogynous sequential hermaphrodites. Meaning that typically a young angelfish will first be female and later the dominant individual transitions to a male. This transformation is, for the purposes of us aquarists, one directional, Juvenile -> Female -> Male; however the literature is quite clear that bidirectional sex-change is not only possible but has been documented on multiple occasions. The transition from female to male can be completed in as few as 60 days.
Naturally Centropyge live in Pairs or Harems, consisting of 1 Dominant Male and 1-10 Females depending on the species. The females establish a hierarchy with a dominant female and then ranked subordinate females typically based on size. When the dominant male dies the dominant female will transition and take his place. It is generally inadvisable to keep harems of Centropyge in aquariums, as in all but the largest tanks, the stack of aggression knocks off the smallest individuals until 2 remain, or at best they tend to go the way of wrasses and a suddenly subordinate females transition to males and its a fight to the death.

To successfully form a pair there are 2 options, just take a male and a female and throw them together, or add 2 females together and wait for one to transition.

How do I know if my Centropyge is a male or a female?
For at least 9 Centropyge, including the flame angels mentioned/pictured above, that is easy(ish). These Angels have permanent sexual dimorphism: C. ferrugatus, C. flavicaudus, C. heraldi, C. interruptus, C. loriculus, C. potteri, C. resplendens, C. shepardi, and C. tibicen. Meaning, like in the picture above these angels have some differences in appearance between males and females at all times, the exact differences vary from species to species. There are several other species which exhibit temporary sexual dimorphism during spawning and courtship, but by this point it is not super helpful, to our ends. The ideal way to form a pair is with a known female and known male. It is important that, the male be slightly larger than the female, or conflict establishing dominance can occur.

Ok, but I want a pair not on that list, how can I do that?
There are several options; the first of which I will suggest is somewhat unconventional, simply buy them. There is a considerable degree of luck and "secret sauce" to forming centropyge pairs, this is heightened for the non dimorphic species. There are people out there who have already had the resources to learn and make mistakes on someone else's dime. Divers Den, TSM, PIA, Marine Collectors, all offer bonded angel pairs, and many local retailers have some guy on staff who knows how to do it. These people likely have better access to ordering and can simply get enough of one species to find a pair that work out. Fish stores and online retailers are better equipped to pair, observe, separate, and try a different individual, and should they not be able to intervene fast enough wholesale costs are lower to replace the lost individual than at retail.
Otherwise there are 2 schools of thought on pairing non-dimorphic (or all) angels: 2 juveniles, vs 1 small & 1 medium. The 2 juveniles/smalls school of thought suggests that you are trying to maximize chance of 2 females, or minimize the chance of 2 males. By selecting species which have a visually distinguished juvenile stage (i.e. C. flavissima, P. multifasciata), or going small (<2") you can virtually eliminate any chance of getting a male. Also, anecdotally small dwarf angels tend to be more tolerant. The downside is at this size Centropyge can be difficult to keep alive, and for breeders, they may need to wait years for them to begin successfully spawning. The 1 small 1 medium has a higher chance of getting 2 males however has some advantages. The larger angels tend to have better survivability. It keeps the size delta such that one individual is not so large it easily or quickly kills the other as often happens with the "1 microscopically tiny and 1 huge" suggested; it is definitely not a safe idea to put together a huge angelfish with a tiny angelfish. It is debated over if the small+medium is overall faster or simply faster to get to spawning, by the nature of the more mature fish. Proponents of small+medium, suggest that it may be more easy to see aggression, and that there is a lot lower chance of having smooth sailing for a few months and then suddenly two fish that hate each-other, which, from time to time happens with 2 equally sized juveniles. Each option has its downsides, and upsides.

So now I have selected my potential pair what do I do with them? I think it is best to introduce them simultaneously to a completely new environment for the both of them. This is the method that I have had the most success with, though other schools of thought exist. It is ideal for them to be introduced in as large a tank as possible with lots of cover. Some times when placed, into too small a tank, or a tank without enough cover, the pair will only fight. I have had the most success in 125g, 75g, and 65g; I have had issues with very small angels in 20g longs. Once together the pair needs very close observation. Watching for signs of aggression, there will be lots of displays and chasing, but there should not be cornering nor fin damage. Aggression should be decreasing not increasing. If you see something concerning separate the fish, things can go south fast. It also can be helpful to not have any distracting fish in the tank with them, the presence of another angel or a tang can disrupt the pairing process. Though sometimes the introduction of a tang or an angel from another species can help instigate two tolerant individuals to pair, this is an advanced technique and requires special caution. It is imperative to still follow best practice, keep the water quality high, stable parameters, established tank, and feed heavy.

With luck, great suppliers, careful preparation and practice, we can keep pairs of any Centropyge!

can you mate/sex together a Cherub angel and a Flameback angel? Or do they have to be of the same exact gene pool?