EB832 Death Screen?

[joshwaggs]

Neptune Systems is nowhere near the scale of Apple - no aquarium hobby company is. If the EB832 cost over a grand, I would agree with you.

Im not comparing the two. Im simply giving an example of a company with brand premium that could do the same thing.

 

[joshwaggs]

Im not comparing the two. Im simply giving an example of a company with brand premium that could do the same thing.

replying to my own comment lol

I have the Apex Classic. It is a champ. It has never had a problem in almost 6 years. I got my money's worth. The new stuff, not so much.

 

[Thales]

What is expensive to you?

Depends on the device you are talking about. And industrial version of APEX is 30K+ and requires specialized installation and consulting. Compared to its competitors, APEX is inexpensive. What is affordable to different people depends on their circumstances.

It seems like your preferred method to mitigate problems with the EB832 is to buy more of them.

For almost all aquarium equipment, yes, because it is made to be affordable which often means it won't last as well as as it would if it were more expensive allowing fewer compromises to be made to make it less expensive.

It's odd when a post on this forum brings up the price of equipment being too high, there is no shortage of people that say "I will pay more for something that lasts longer instead of buying a new thing every year when the cheaper one wears out."

But people don't pay more. This list of products that have been introduced that are more expensive so they last longer is huge, and the bulk of the hobby has shown over and over, by not buying that stuff, that it doesn't want that stuff. This is the same reason LFS and vendors that try to be sustainable and responsible have failed - the hobby in general is not willing to pay more for stuff.

So, which is it? Is Neptune sitting with Jebao pumps with the EB832? Some people love it and have no problems, but a lot of people have to replace them every year. Or, is Neptune a premium brand that gets a premium for the quality?

Neptune is a premium brand in this industry. All companies in this industry are 'small' and calculate how much a product can cost and still be sold in enough quantity to make some profit.

 

[joshwaggs]

But people don't pay more. This list of products that have been introduced that are more expensive so they last longer is huge, and the bulk of the hobby has shown over and over, by not buying that stuff, that it doesn't want that stuff. This is the same reason LFS and vendors that try to be sustainable and responsible have failed - the hobby in general is not willing to pay more for stuff.

This is a good point, but I dont agree with the idea that people dont want that stuff. Look at AI. EcoTech hit a home run with them. They made a smart purchase. AI provides the expected quality and performance in it's stuff without the premium bloat. The people that dont mind paying for the name and the extra power and feature of EcoTech can and will still buy EcoTech. People want quality and are willing to fork over cash, but they dont want the premium tax that comes with the name.

I completely derailed this thread. Sorry.

 

[robbyg]

Neptune is a premium brand in this industry. All companies in this industry are 'small' and calculate how much a product can cost and still be sold in enough quantity to make some profit.

Don't you think it's kind of an Oxymoron to say Neptune is a Premium Brand or do you just mean Premium priced product?

It has been shown time and again that they use the lowest priced Chinese components in their products and then sell the final product for a Premium price.

 

[Thales]

No, not really but for others I can see how it can be construed as such. $250 is a lot of money for a lot of people, even when you compare it to other purchases in the hobby.

Gotcha. Thanks. I make a distinction between cheap, inexpensive and affordability. While I think compared to other products that control aquarium systems APEX is way inexpensive, but that doesn't at all mean to me that APEX is affordable to everyone.

However, I think the theme of the thread is not so much the price but the quality of the product.

I think price and quality in our industry are way tied together.

When I started reading this thread, I viewed it from the lens that most posters aren't being honest with community and the themselves by not admitting that they allowed the energy bar to get wet [in some way some how]. That's simply because my experience was such that the only EB832 that ever gave me problems was the one that got dripped on

I repaired mine and since having looked inside, I can relate to what the latest posters are saying about quality, I'm not in tune with industry practice when it comes to selecting or designing electronic components. But I would think that there is plenty of meat still on the bone to make these a bit more reliable within the conditions they're being used.

I am not sure what people are expecting for a 250 dollar device that does all that an EB832 does - for what it does it is so inexpensive.
Even painting components with dielectric grease would necessarily raise the price of the product IMO because these are quasi massed produced. Someone has to be paid to apply the grease properly, and the time and effort that would go into that would have to be reflected in and increase in the final price.
Our industry is not big enough to get the same economies of scale that TV's, Phones, and Microwaves get. Sad but true.

 

[Thales]

This is a good point, but I dont agree with the idea that people dont want that stuff. Look at AI. EcoTech hit a home run with them. They made a smart purchase. AI provides the expected quality and performance in it's stuff without the premium bloat. The people that dont mind paying for the name and the extra power and feature of EcoTech can and will still buy EcoTech. People want quality and are willing to fork over cash, but they dont want the premium tax that comes with the name.

I completely derailed this thread. Sorry.

Interesting. I suppose separate companies might work, one that provided an inexpensive version and one that would supply an expensive version. Having them be from the same would likely confuse people. I do wonder though if things would be different if ecotech didn't come to market initially with truly novel, shelf ready, products like the MP-40.

 

[Thales]

It is a power bar with power monitoring and some extra connections. There are tons of them on the market and they arent as expensive, at all. You can get the same thing with a battery back up, and it still isnt as expensive.

Do you have links to those products? Why are not more aquarists using them?

 

[Thales]

replying to my own comment lol

I have the Apex Classic. It is a champ. It has never had a problem in almost 6 years. I got my money's worth. The new stuff, not so much.

I had massive problems with my first APEX classic!

 

[Thales]

Im not comparing the two. Im simply giving an example of a company with brand premium that could do the same thing.

I hear you, but the example falls short for me because of the realities of the two different industries. Great discussion, thanks!

 

[joshwaggs]

Interesting. I suppose separate companies might work, one that provided an inexpensive version and one that would supply an expensive version. Having them be from the same would likely confuse people. I do wonder though if things would be different if ecotech didn't come to market initially with truly novel, shelf ready, products like the MP-40.

EcoTech was founded in 2003. Neptune was founded in 1995. In that time, EcoTech has done a lot more with their profit than Neptune. They have grown in size, acquired new assets, and expanded their product line and refresh products frequently.
I dont know if it is really fair to compare the two.

EcoTech: 61 employees and 5 million in revenue
Neptune: 41 employees and 8 million in revenue

Edit: I hate EcoTech pricing too. lol But at least I can understand what they are doing.

 

[robbyg]

Even painting components with dielectric grease would necessarily raise the price of the product

 

[joshwaggs]

Thales said:
Even painting components with dielectric grease would necessarily raise the price of the product

I use conformal coating on PDBs and FCBs during drone builds (another hobby). The coating is expensive, but applying it doesnt add anymore than a few seconds and some time to dry. Im not sure it would add much in price to build in mass.

 

[User1]

I'd say the jury is out. How many people own the EB832 problem free vs those posting about their issues. We all know no one comes to the forums to spew golden bombs of light and love on all the products they own. Also with regards to people buying multiples. Multiples can be for spares be it hot (powered but not with attachments) or box or as a redundant unit (plugs for heaters, cor return pumps, or waves).

I could go on and on over my experience with Mag and Jebao pumps compared to my Cor 15, and 20's. Also compared to my older Japanese Iwaki one. Jebao RW4, 8, power heads and DCP 15000 return pump. The RW's needed to be cleaned within 2 weeks or it had significant fall off on performance. It wasn't uncommon for them to seize up within a year. One made it to 3. Seemed random. The DCP 15000 return pump? Worked great moved a lot of water. However, didn't make it through the tanks leak check as it had a leak at the base of the output neck and threads. Paper thin body design. Oh, the handle they included on the body isn't really a handle as it is just tuned under the end cap...just for looks.

You want to know what is funny though? People have Jebao pumps as their primary source and they work great. So who am I to say they are garbage. It is similar to the EB832. I have had great luck. I also keep one as a standby spare in use (1 Cor 15, 1 heater). Mine are also mounted such that they do not get wet and have air flow. I also blow them out, the fan area, when I do this on my Kessil a360x's. Seems normal to me with a fan and I have a GSD (German Shepherd) who sheds like there is no tomorrow. SO I have her hair everywhere...

TL;DR - a dollar is a dollar and I agree. 250 can be a lot to some. To anyone I guess. You expect it to last forever. Probably many do. We just don't hear about it - only those with a bad experience...

 

[Thales]

I use conformal coating on PDBs and FCBs during drone builds (another hobby). The coating is expensive, but applying it doesnt add anymore than a few seconds and some time to dry. Im not sure it would add much in price to build in mass.

Doesn't it depend on how many components need to be painted on the assembly line?

Making up numbers - if they put together 25 units a day, and need to spend an extra 5 minutes per unit coating, that adds an extra two hours a day. 2 hours seems like a lot. Reducing the number of units made, adding a skill/staff, adding the cost of the coating, stuff & space used to apply the coating, would all have to be made up for somehow.
If this was a bigger industry, there might be huge assembly lines making at least thousands of these a day, and the extra cost becomes easier to absorb.

 

[joshwaggs]

Doesn't it depend on how many components need to be painted on the assembly line?

Making up numbers - if they put together 25 units a day, and need to spend an extra 5 minutes per unit coating, that adds an extra two hours a day. 2 hours seems like a lot. Reducing the number of units made, adding a skill/staff, adding the cost of the coating, stuff & space used to apply the coating, would all have to be made up for somehow.
If this was a bigger industry, there might be huge assembly lines making at least thousands of these a day, and the extra cost becomes easier to absorb.

Touche

But, Im guessing (literally), the power boards are made and soldered in china, which means they can add the coating there, which would negate the added process in assembly in America.

 

[robbyg]

I use conformal coating on PDBs and FCBs during drone builds (another hobby). The coating is expensive, but applying it doesnt add anymore than a few seconds and some time to dry. Im not sure it would add much in price to build in mass.

I agree, I have a nice jar of Conformal coating on my bench. The question is why would anyone put dialectric grease on a circuit board. Maybe the connectors in order to get a better connection but not all over the board. That might fry it!

 

[joshwaggs]

I agree, I have a nice jar of Conformal coating on my bench. The question is why would anyone put dialectric grease on a circuit board. Maybe the connectors in order to get a better connection but not all over the board. That might fry it!

Ha. Good catch.

 

[MadeForThat]

Okay if the average income is 50k a year then 250$ is 2 days of post tax income. That's a lot of money to spend on 40$ worth of chinese junk, and on the false pretense that the company will support you. If you say 250$ is inexpensive for 8 outlets, then you are clearly far wealthier than a large portion of aquarium owners. You can't just pull the " if you can afford one than you can afford two" crap

 

[MadeForThat]

I wouldn't say to use dielectric grease, that is a terrible idea haha! I was referring to acrylic paint on coatings, I use them on drones to protect in clouds. It's cheap enough for a bottle of it:

and that would last for a large number of boards.