Established flame angel, refusing to eat - intestinal problem?

[Claus84]

Hi all,

I suspect my flame angel has some internal issues and am hoping to get some advice on the best course of action. As a bit of background I have had this fish in my reef for nearly two years and am in the process of moving my stock into a new tank so for the past 2.5 weeks this fish has been in a QT. I've done a lot of reading on R2R and today I dosed the QT with Metro+ (as the fish isn't eating) and added epsom salts (food grade @ 1 tbsp per 5 gals).It also had one round of prazipro last week.

It has not eaten for the entire time it has been in quarantine despite my efforts to feed its usual favourite foods and a variety of others, it will swim up to the food but then ignore it and swim past. It was initially in a small QT so I put it down to stress but I have seen some very weird stringy poop coming out of it also, it had what can only be described as a thread around 8" long coming out of it the other day, it wasnt white, in fact it was so thin it was almost colourless. It doesn't visibly seem to have lost much size despite the lack of eating but it does look a bit lumpy in the stomach area, it is not in the least bit lethergic as it spent 2 weeks pacing back and forth constanly in a 2ft QT before I went and bought a 4ft to put it in, its also still very inquisitive. I've had my suspicions for a while that this fish has some sort of intestinal issues, in the past I have seen its poop hang out of it twisted up in multiple threads, could it be that this fish has some sort of blockage?? If so is there anything I can do other than epsom/metro/prazi?

P.S. my clowns, who the until recently were in the same tank as the angel most definitely have internal parasites so it's definiely not out of the question for the flame, the clowns are eating so I am feeding metro/focus (and have GC on the way to switch too if needed)

Thanks in advance

Nick

 

[Big G]

You could try some boiled green peas if the fish is constipated. Works pretty good as a laxative. Boil the peas enough so you can peel off the outer skin. Feed the inner part to your fish. Big time fiber. ;)

 

[Claus84]

You could try some boiled green peas if the fish is constipated. Works pretty good as a laxative. Boil the peas enough so you can peel off the outer skin. Feed the inner part to your fish. Big time fiber. ;)

Thanks, I'll give it a shot of the epsom doesn't unplug him but he's not eating at the moment, although the novelty value of a new food might persuade him to try I guess

 

[Claus84]

Still not much luck getting this fish to eat unfortunately. I have a lot of different food types, so far it had a couple of pecks at a cockle and ate a single pellet, it may have even spat that out behind the rocks. It kind of pecked at a pea but didn't eat any.

I saw a thin filament hanging out of it again yesterday but it has not been going to the toilet properly despite the epsom in the water. I'm on day 4 of dosing the tank with metro+ today (dosing every 48 hours - 2 doses so far) and am just starting to see a small amount of ammonia (I HATE dosing antibiotics to the water for this reason).

Really not sure what else I can try at this stage, the flame is still active but just ignores food, it will sometime swim up to it, look at it then keep on going.

Finally got some general cure today shipped from the US so I may switch the next metro dose for this instead.

Any advice appreciated

Thanks

Nick

 

[Gareth elliott]

Angels can be prone to stress, and stress will bring out disease if its at all present.

Do you have a picture of the qt setup? Dwarf angels live amongst the rocks of a reef and feel most comfortable when they have many caves and hiding places to go into, perhaps more pvc caves will get the angel to feel comfortable enough to eat, then can move to treating with medicated or high fiber foods.

Can also try dimming the qt lights a bit.

 

[Claus84]

Angels can be prone to stress, and stress will bring out disease if its at all present.

Do you have a picture of the qt setup? Dwarf angels live amongst the rocks of a reef and feel most comfortable when they have many caves and hiding places to go into, perhaps more pvc caves will get the angel to feel comfortable enough to eat, then can move to treating with medicated or high fiber foods.

Can also try dimming the qt lights a bit.

Thanks for the response, I'm watching the fish on a webcam at the moment and it is pacing fairly frantically so stress is probably a factor.

The QT is 48x12x15 with a couple of pieces of non porous rock, two well established internal filters, a fine covering of sand on the bottom and several pipe elbows and T's. I placed a black background on the tank but I think this was reflecting too much so I have placed sheets of plain paper between the background and the tank which seems to cut down the mirror effect. There are no lights on the QT, just a lamp nearby in the room on a timer.

I wouldn't usually put any rock or sand in a QT but hoped it would help him settle as he went nuts pacing in the bare glass 24" Qt I had him in originally. The big difference is that the Qt is on the floor, I have 2 more QT's running at the moment due to moving all my fish so I have run out of stands. The fish doesn't hide when I enter the room and in fact stops pacing and stares at me so I don't think the fact it's on the floor is bothering it too much.

I may try more rockwork, I know this may interfere with the meds but looking at him pacing I think stress might be the major factor here as you suggest.

Had this flame nearby 2 years, he's one of the first batch of captive bred flames imported to the UK and I have a tiny female CB also in QT I was planning to pair him with, I'll be absolutely gutted it I lose him but really struggling for ideas!

Thanks

 

[Claus84]

It's frustrating as I was more concerned about the tang in a small tank but it's eating fine, I also quarantined my Biota coral beauty and CB majestic and blue line angels in bare glass tanks with no issues, guess this flame is just sensitive!

 

[Claus84]

Added more rockwork and covered half the tank with a towel which seems to have snapped him out of his pacing habits, still disinterested in food though unfortunately.

If anyone has any magic recipe for getting stubborn fish to eat then please let me know. So far tried the usual garlic brine and mysis, couple of different flake and pellet types, cockle in shell, nori and 5 different types of putty or paste food. At best he will have one little pick at the food then completely ignore it.

I may try switching the metro for GC tonight and see if that helps

 

[Claus84]

Hi all, so this fish is still not really eating. I realise / guess at least that it must be eating something to still be alive after so long but it just swims up to and ignores whatever food I put in. It's had 2 rounds of GC dosed into the water (i.e. 4 doses in total) over the last couple of months and I have dosed Epsom salts on a couple of occasions to try and flush him out.

Haven't seen it eat, and also haven't seen in poop in some time now, poop was so long and stringy that it was very noticeable when cleaning the QT.

It has 3ft of a 4ft Qt that it now shares with 4 salt converted mollies, I was hoping these would encourage it to eat but no luck so far, although it has only been 1 week. The other section of the tank has my baby flame angel in it.

I'm at a bit of loss, having just lost my favourite fish (Biota mandarin) to Ich in my DT I really don't want to wake up to another of my established fish struggling one day. Had it 2 years and prior to pulling it out of my reef at the back end of last year seemed to be eating fine


Any suggestions welcome

Nick

 

[Big G]

Wow, Nick. Frustrating to say the least. Before trying more meds, have you read this? https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/preparing-frozen-foods-for-my-fish-and-corals.300448/#post-3677350

I used Jsker's idea and came up with my own version of a fish "smoothie" and they love it. Maybe a mix of your own might get the fish to eat properly. I get as many frozen fish cubes as possible: mysis, cyclops, brine shrimp, seaweed, chopped clams, reef mix, etc. Take one of each and place into a bowl. Let the cubes "slump" in the fridge. Pour off the excess liquid. Add a few drops of vitamins like Selcon, Zoecon, etc. Mix a bit. The mix will stay good in the fridge for a few days.

With this mix the fish will be getting a wide variety of proteins, fats, vitamins, fiber to help with a balance diet. My fish go crazy over this and its great for corals too. Experiment a bit and see if this blend helps it find something it really likes.

@jsker any ideas?
#reefsquad

 

[Gareth elliott]

If you are near a sushi grade sea food store. Roe is great for getting stubborn fish to eat too. Lobster roe and flying fish roe have worked for me, i usually go for lobster as i live on the east coast and easier to get my hands on.

 

[Big G]

If you are near a sushi grade sea food store. Roe is great for getting stubborn fish to eat too. Lobster roe and flying fish roe have worked for me, i usually go for lobster as i live on the east coast and easier to get my hands on.

I knew I left something off of my list to make the smoothie: frozen fish eggs ;)

 

[Claus84]

Wow, Nick. Frustrating to say the least. Before trying more meds, have you read this? https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/preparing-frozen-foods-for-my-fish-and-corals.300448/#post-3677350

I used Jsker's idea and came up with my own version of a fish "smoothie" and they love it. Maybe a mix of your own might get the fish to eat properly. I get as many frozen fish cubes as possible: mysis, cyclops, brine shrimp, seaweed, chopped clams, reef mix, etc. Take one of each and place into a bowl. Let the cubes "slump" in the fridge. Pour off the excess liquid. Add a few drops of vitamins like Selcon, Zoecon, etc. Mix a bit. The mix will stay good in the fridge for a few days.

With this mix the fish will be getting a wide variety of proteins, fats, vitamins, fiber to help with a balance diet. My fish go crazy over this and its great for corals too. Experiment a bit and see if this blend helps it find something it really likes.

@jsker any ideas?
#reefsquad

Thats a great idea, thanks for the link!

If you are near a sushi grade sea food store. Roe is great for getting stubborn fish to eat too. Lobster roe and flying fish roe have worked for me, i usually go for lobster as i live on the east coast and easier to get my hands on.

Thanks, i'm in an awkward spot (small town in the centre of the country!) but i'll see what I can find online etc.

I'll try and get a decent vid of this flame later in case you can see something I can't. Time to hunt for some ingredients and get 'slacking'!

 

[Claus84]

Well my flames dying. I finished a 7 day fenbendazole treatment on Sunday (just trying another approach to attack internal parasites) then did a few dip yesterday, no flukes or anything came off him.

I noticed his fins were a bit tattered a couple of days ago, overnight they have completely dissapeared down to the fin rays and the base of the fins look very sore. He is also now struggling to maintain buoyancy. I think the writing is on the wall but I'm not giving up just yet, he is now in a 30min methylene blue bath which I will follow up with a course of kana & metroplex (I don't have furan so can't do the trifecta). I also have triple sulfa but I'm not sure this can be mixed with kana/metro.

Not sure what else I can at this stage, we can't buy antibiotics off the shelf here in the UK so I only have what I have been able to order from the US over the years.

Fairly crap month having lost my biota mandarin to ich a couple of weeks ago too (from a different tank)

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

Well my flames dying. I finished a 7 day fenbendazole treatment on Sunday (just trying another approach to attack internal parasites) then did a few dip yesterday, no flukes or anything came off him.

I noticed his fins were a bit tattered a couple of days ago, overnight they have completely dissapeared down to the fin rays and the base of the fins look very sore. He is also now struggling to maintain buoyancy. I think the writing is on the wall but I'm not giving up just yet, he is now in a 30min methylene blue bath which I will follow up with a course of kana & metroplex (I don't have furan so can't do the trifecta). I also have triple sulfa but I'm not sure this can be mixed with kana/metro.

Not sure what else I can at this stage, we can't buy antibiotics off the shelf here in the UK so I only have what I have been able to order from the US over the years.

Fairly crap month having lost my biota mandarin to ich a couple of weeks ago too (from a different tank)

Sorry to hear this :(

 

[4FordFamily]

Did you have an ammonia alert badge in QT? Flame angels (and all angels but especially centropyge) are very sensitive to ammonia. They can successfully be quarantined but they don't tolerate even minute amounts of ammonia. Did you have an ammonia alert badge and use beneficial bacteria such as biospira to control for ammonia in QT?

Just another thought, you may have already thought about that.

Sorry the angel isn't doing well, :(

 

[Claus84]

Did you have an ammonia alert badge in QT? Flame angels (and all angels but especially centropyge) are very sensitive to ammonia. They can successfully be quarantined but they don't tolerate even minute amounts of ammonia. Did you have an ammonia alert badge and use beneficial bacteria such as biospira to control for ammonia in QT?

Just another thought, you may have already thought about that.

Sorry the angel isn't doing well, :(

Thanks yeah I do and I actually tested ammonia yesterday as I had a lot of die off of worms due to the fenbendazole (it's not strictly a Qt more of a grow out tank for my baby flame which I was going to pair with the larger flame). Test was clear and I did a 30% WC upon completion of 7 days treatment on Sunday. My little flame in the same tank seems okay. I will definitely test again now though

 

[Claus84]

Did you have an ammonia alert badge in QT? Flame angels (and all angels but especially centropyge) are very sensitive to ammonia. They can successfully be quarantined but they don't tolerate even minute amounts of ammonia. Did you have an ammonia alert badge and use beneficial bacteria such as biospira to control for ammonia in QT?

Just another thought, you may have already thought about that.

Sorry the angel isn't doing well, :(

No detectable ammonia at the moment, or when I tested a few days ago but I'm not ruling out a spike that the alert badge didn't register in the last week. One of my mollies that was being bullied in the same tank has has some 'stuff' on one of its fins which is likely lympho (covered in another thread!). But my other 3 mollies and my tiny flame look good. I guess maybe the larger flame having not eaten properly for so long could have taken a spike worse than the others.

It's worth following up anyway, from what I can gather if it is bacterial the kana and metro should help but does my course of action change if it is ammonia related??

Thanks

Nick

 

[Claus84]

I think all of this may be moot come morning anyway but I want to do everything I can in the meantime

 

[Claus84]

Unfortunately he didn't make it, I'm going to get a friend who is a fish parasitologist to dissect him and see what's what. At least that may offer some clarity as to what was going on with him these past few months. If it turns up anything I'll update the thread in case it's of use to anyone in a similar situation in the future.

Thanks for all the advice

Nick