Terri Caton
Valuable Member
That’s interesting. Thanks for the link.
I agree getting those to survive in a test tube with antibiotics and at a low temp certainly doesn’t translate to our reef tank environments. Is it possible, yes. Probable, no.
Fallow periods: Going Fishless
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That’s interesting. Thanks for the link.
I agree getting those to survive in a test tube with antibiotics and at a low temp certainly doesn’t translate to our reef tank environments. Is it possible, yes. Probable, no.
Humblefish
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It all comes down to one's tolerance for risk. I personally isolate all new corals/inverts to my fishless frag tank for only 6 weeks. Nothing has ever gotten through and made it's way into my DT. But I've also made it a point to eliminate all anaerobic regions from that frag tank.
JustGetACat
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I just started treating what I believe is velvet with CP three days ago (I got a long way to go!). Because my tank is now fallow, I thought I'd try and focus on growing my corals and adding some new ones as well. However based on this comment, you're saying if I add any coral, I have to start the fallow timeline over again? What if I dip the corals?...It almost sounds like I can never add a coral again without risking bringing in a parasite....Longer is always better when going fallow. It's always possible an untested strain of ich exists that can take longer than 72 days for all the theronts to be released from encysted tomonts.
I recently attended a lecture by Tony Vargas (author of "The Coral Reef Aquarium") where he advocated letting a newly setup tank cycle without fish for at least 90-120 days without light; 180 days is even better. His argument had nothing to do with fish diseases, but to let the microfauna on the LR propagate without being eaten by the fish. Doing this alleviates some of "the uglies" many new SW aquariums experience (diatoms, GHA, dinos, cyanobacteria, etc.) The theory is that microfauna present in sufficient numbers inside your aquarium will deal with these problems for you, keeping them out of sight.
So, what does this mean for you if going fallow to starve out a fish disease in your DT? Take the opportunity to add more pods/microfauna to your tank, or stock more CUC if needed. You can even add more corals/inverts during the fallow period, so long as you restart the 76 day clock to compensate for any tomonts which they might be carrying. Turn a negative into something positive and fun!
Humblefish
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How to Quarantine Coral and Inverts
Coral and Invert Quarantine What?! You want me to quarantine my fish AND my corals and inverts? In a word, Yes. Have you ever quarantined all your fish, were so careful to treat carefully and follow all the rules only to end up with ich or...
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Coral/Invert Quarantine Time Frames
Coral/Invert Quarantine Time Frames Preface: The purpose of this article is to outline time periods required to properly quarantine (QT) marine corals & invertebrates. While unable to host ectoparasites the way fish do, corals/inverts are still able to “carry” fish diseases in one of two ways...
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Big G
captain dunsel
Well, yeah, each time you bring something "wet" into the display tank, there is a risk of bring disease and parasites. In addition to QTing all new fish, I QT all incoming corals and inverts for 76 days. And I do multiple dips of the corals. In their own QT. Found out the hard way that dipping corals in Bayer for example, even though I rinse, rinse, rinse, them carefully, some of the Bayer tags along into the QT and killed some of the snails I was QTing in the same QT. So now they are not QT'd together. What a pain
But my DT is disease and pest free. It just takes some of the fun out of it.Going Fallow**Read this before going fallow**: Why a fallow period will sometimes fail
The reason to go fallow (fishless) is to eliminate a fish disease from your DT (display tank). Going fallow works because you are denying the disease a fish host to feed on, essentially starving it to death.
In order to go fallow you must remove ALL fish from your DT. If just one fish is left behind, even a “disease resistant” species, then going fallow is for naught because the disease will continue its life cycle. Corals/inverts can be left in the DT, as those are not capable of hosting - although some are capable of “housing” the encysted stage of certain parasites for a period of time (see “Fallow Periods” below). It is important to continue to feed your corals/inverts while going fallow, and also put a pinch of flake or pellet food into the DT every 2-3 days to feed nitrifying bacteria in the absence of fish poop. Continue to do everything normally with your tank while going fallow; although you may wish to go lights out if you are running a fish only system (just don’t forget to feed that bacteria!)
Fallow Periods - Below is the general consensus fallow periods for all diseases that require it. In most cases, it is the longest known time period that the encysted stage can survive on corals, inverts, rocks, substrate without a fish host to feed on. The fallow period starts when the last fish is removed from the tank.
During the fallow period, the fish must be quarantined and treated for whatever disease(s) are afflicting them (see links below). Successful treatment is imperative to avoid disease(s) from being reintroduced into the DT:
- Black ich (turbellarian worms) - 4 weeks
- Brooklynella aka “Clownfish disease” or “Brook” - 6 weeks
- Flukes (monogenean worms) - 4 weeks
- Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) - 76 days
- Uronema marinum - No fallow period, as it does not require a fish host to survive. It is an opportunistic parasite that strikes when a fish’s immune system has been compromised. Uronema mainly affects damsels (especially chromis) and clownfish.
- Velvet (Amyloodinium) - 6 weeks
https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-diagnosis/189284-fish-diseases-101-a.html
https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fi...is/189658-treatment-options-my-two-cents.html
Quarantining all future livestock purchases is also very important to avoid having to go fallow again in the future: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-diagnosis/189815-how-quarantine.html
After the fallow period has ended, you can return your fish to the DT. I recommend doing it one fish at a time, spread out over a couple of weeks. This will give your bacterial levels time to adjust to the added fish bio-load, and avoid a potential mini-cycle/ammonia spike. I also prefer to add back smaller fish first, so they are established ahead of the larger, more aggressive ones.
Do be sure to closely monitor your ammonia levels while adding fish back. I advocate using a Seachem Ammonia Alert badge for constant monitoring:
Edit: You can also use a FW black molly to test if your fallow period has been successful: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods-going-fishless.190324/page-2#post-2855190
I have a 450 gallon mixed reef. Most fish have died from ich/velvet, however several remain alive two weeks following the death of the last fish. More may become infected over time. Catching and removing these visibly healthy fish will be difficult. You had indicated that even “disease resistant” fish must be removed prior to initiating the fallow period. Eggpaul (post #195) asked ”how does the ich survive [i.e. attach and multiply] on such a fish?” I did not find a reply to this important question. Post #249 remarked in a separate thread that the parasite remains in the gills. What is the evidence (published or anecdotal) that the feeding stage of these parasites survives for long periods on the fish w/o causing disease?
The key phrase is disease resistant- while they don't attract velvet/ich as much, it is still present (ich will often attach to the gills and isn't visible). You need to completely disrupt it's life cycle to eliminate it from the tank.
I see. It has now been close to six weeks since the die-off; the survivors, remaining in the DT, appear in excellent condition. I was able to trap an infected Foxface Rabbittfish, placing it in QT (hyposalinity and Cupramine) for the past month. It revealed no evidence of disease over the past three weeks, so today it is back in the DT. Let’s see if it becomes reinfected.....
gobble
Well-Known Member
Given all the failed fallow periods (myself included) and the fact that ich seems to survive in low oxygen areas longer than 76 days, is removing all coral and inverts and going hypo in the display a better option than fallow?
Big G
captain dunsel
Yep. Everything is treated as normal, feeding inverts & corals, water changes, cleaning, etc. except no fish.
Longer is always better when going fallow. It's always possible an untested strain of ich exists that can take longer than 72 days for all the theronts to be released from encysted tomonts.
I recently attended a lecture by Tony Vargas (author of "The Coral Reef Aquarium") where he advocated letting a newly setup tank cycle without fish for at least 90-120 days without light; 180 days is even better. His argument had nothing to do with fish diseases, but to let the microfauna on the LR propagate without being eaten by the fish. Doing this alleviates some of "the uglies" many new SW aquariums experience (diatoms, GHA, dinos, cyanobacteria, etc.) The theory is that microfauna present in sufficient numbers inside your aquarium will deal with these problems for you, keeping them out of sight.
So, what does this mean for you if going fallow to starve out a fish disease in your DT? Take the opportunity to add more pods/microfauna to your tank, or stock more CUC if needed. You can even add more corals/inverts during the fallow period, so long as you restart the 76 day clock to compensate for any tomonts which they might be carrying. Turn a negative into something positive and fun!
I have a 105g DT that has just completed its cycle and am currently cycling a 20g long QT that I will use for all of the fish that I will introduce to my DT (I'm kicking myself for not starting the cycles at the same time, but that is likely just one of the MANY lessons I'm sure I'm about to learn in this hobby). My question is regarding the biological filtration I'm using in my QT. I have a HOB filter and a small powerhead in my QT. In the back of the HOB filter, I have a mesh bag of Matrix Rocks (very porous--kind of like small chunks of marine pure) for biological filtration. Considering that I will start a series of QT-to-DT fish introductions over a period of many months, can I just keep those Matrix Rocks in my QT to maintain the nitrifying bacteria (there is just PVC segments to provide hidey holes for the fish), as long as I never transfer to my DT? I will be quarantining with Cupramine, PraziPro and hyposalinity. Thank you!!
4tanks
Well-Known Member
What is the reason for so much velvet now great info BTWVelvet is running rampant right now; so much so that I've considered dissuading people from using TTM for the time being.
Which wrasses can tolerate CP is still a puzzle. For example, that Yellow-Flanked Fairy Wrasse you got from me went thru CP just fine. But it appears flasher wrasses and especially Halichoeres genus are very intolerant. So out of an abundance of caution, I'm telling people to only use copper on wrasses until I get it figured out.
Big G
captain dunsel
Collectors, suppliers, and retailers are not making efforts to effectively reduce parasites within their control. There has been a lot of dosing fish with sub-therapeutic levels of copper just to get the fish through their systems and out to customers. Then the parasites come roaring back. Often without the normal exterior symptoms we look for on the fish's skin.
4tanks
Well-Known Member
Thanks Kind of taking the enjoyment out the hobby until someone comes up with reef safe miracle cure
Hello all,
Unfortunately I lost all my fish in my 6 month old tank to a disease. I have a 40 gallon tank which before today had a pair of clowns, a cow fish and a blenny. Everything went pretty quickly and I couldn’t save them, it looks like it was brook based upon my research but the clowns were the last to go, a day after the other fish so I am not 100% sure. I am pretty disappointed as everything was going so well for the 6 months beforehand. I am going to fallow for the 72 days but as I have my CUC and some coral in there I will continue to dose and feed.
My question is should I clean everything I used in the tank like gravel vacs etc? I have been dosing with liquids which required me to put a syringe in the bottle. Are these now all useless or infected and be thrown out or can I continue to dose with them?
Unfortunately I lost all my fish in my 6 month old tank to a disease. I have a 40 gallon tank which before today had a pair of clowns, a cow fish and a blenny. Everything went pretty quickly and I couldn’t save them, it looks like it was brook based upon my research but the clowns were the last to go, a day after the other fish so I am not 100% sure. I am pretty disappointed as everything was going so well for the 6 months beforehand. I am going to fallow for the 72 days but as I have my CUC and some coral in there I will continue to dose and feed.
My question is should I clean everything I used in the tank like gravel vacs etc? I have been dosing with liquids which required me to put a syringe in the bottle. Are these now all useless or infected and be thrown out or can I continue to dose with them?
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@Big G hey! Thanks again for answering all my questions! Asking for a friend of mine— When doing a fallow period... is it essential to bleach all equipment like magnetic scrapers, veggie magnetic, trash cans to use for water changes, tubing etc... would the parasites go dormant on these surfaces and they once placed into the tank become alive? Thanks again
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Big G
captain dunsel
Possible sources of parasites for sure. We aren't sure exactly how some parasites seem to migrate from tank to tank without fish transfer. Some thoughts are on aersol transmission. But more than likely, it's equipment, wet hands, and cross contamination is the result. I always clean, sterilize equipment from tanks with parasites. Bleach, rinse, rinse, rinse, dry. And if a particularly nasty parasite like Uronema, velvet, gram negative bacterial infections, etc. I do another step wit H2O2, rinse, rinse, rinse, dry.
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