Marine Ich and Temperature

[Triggreef]

Just finished reading through all that. So who was it that came up with the diagram explaining the percentage of ich irradiation according to how many days fallow you've gone? I remember seeing it but can never find it. It was something like 14 days 50 percent 28 days 90 percent etc etc.

I also love ttm is just so easy, and almost free. if you use (parasite free) display water your just using water that would go down the drain anyhow. I have trouble understanding anyone's argument against that even if they feel it's not 100 percent successful. The arguments are comical.

 

[omykiss001]

Thank you for pruning this, or separating it out. The tone is much more inviting.

I found this table interest..... mind you it's colder than our average tank.

Do you have the paper this came from? I would very much enjoy reading it.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

PM coming your way.

I am also totally TOTALLY embarrassed I did not reference that.

Dan, X., Lin, X., Yan, Y., Teng, N., Tan, Z., & Li, A. (2009). A technique for the preservation of Cryptocaryon irritans at low temperatures. Aquaculture, 297(1), 112-115.

 

[4FordFamily]

Wow this is a fascinating read! I wish I had more to contribute. I will say my luck with cupramine has been less than stellar even at 2-3x recommended dose I now use coppersafe.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Why do you think the tomont size differ amongst different species of fish?

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Why do you think the tomont size differ amongst different species of fish?

I guess immunity could have something to do with this.

 

[Triggreef]

Why do you think the tomont size differ amongst different species of fish?

Couldn't different fish supply different needs for the parasite? Maybe the bigger size is an indication of a healthier parasite?

 

[Lionfish Lair]

I'll look and see if any of the articles I have mention it. I cannot find my notebook. It's like an index to where all my references are found.

 

[Humblefish]

Just finished reading through all that. So who was it that came up with the diagram explaining the percentage of ich irradiation according to how many days fallow you've gone? I remember seeing it but can never find it. It was something like 14 days 50 percent 28 days 90 percent etc etc.

It's this sticky on RC: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388421

But I have no idea where Steve got that info from or just how accurate it is.

 

[Reefahholic]

Ok, now I see where the 76 days came from. Worst case scenario and further thinking. I like that. I do wonder where the 48 Hr "find a host" or die came from. Is that another study or is it still 24 hrs? I know that Steve's writings say 24 hrs then die. That would be 1 day not 2. So would the true fallow time now be 75 days??

 

[icemanalex]

@Humblefish You seem like a well educated man, so I pose this question to you. Gathered from these studies could I assess that in theory I could shock my display tank say with some Ice in the sump and rapidly reduce the temp, maintain it for say 8 hrs, catch the fish and put into QT. Slowly raise the temp in my DT now to say 81 degrees and then go fallow for 30 or so days and the fish in QT would then come in with little if any ICH , so while in QT observe and treat if symptoms arise

 

[Reefahholic]

@Humblefish You seem like a well educated man, so I pose this question to you. Gathered from these studies could I assess that in theory I could shock my display tank say with some Ice in the sump and rapidly reduce the temp, maintain it for say 8 hrs, catch the fish and put into QT. Slowly raise the temp in my DT now to say 81 degrees and then go fallow for 30 or so days and the fish in QT would then come in with little if any ICH , so while in QT observe and treat if symptoms arise

Why would you want to do all that...

 

[melypr1985]

Why would you want to do all that...

I second that question

 

[FarmerTy]

I second that question

Because he's the iceman!

 

[Reefahholic]

It's this sticky on RC: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388421

But I have no idea where Steve got that info from or just how accurate it is.

Steve is a knowledgeable guy, but I think it's also important that we "all" site our sources and answer questions as to how we came to the conclusion we did.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

[insert name] is a knowledgeable guy, but I think it's also important that we "all" site our sources and answer questions as to how we came to the conclusion we did.

My new favorite quote of the year.....

 

[Humblefish]

I reached out to Dr. Colorni, who co-authored the article which established the "72 day rule" for ich. Here is my email to him:

Dear Sir,

I am writing to you regarding this article you co-authored back in 1997: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018360323287

The part I have a question about is quoted below:

Even under identical incubation conditions tomonts vary considerably in the time required to form theronts (Nigrelli and Ruggieri, 1966; Colorni, 1992; Burgess and Matthews, 1994a; Diggles and Lester, 1996b). Thus, theront excystment is very asynchronous, occurring between 3 and 72 days and peaking at 6 ± 2 days (Colorni, 1992). This differs significantly from I. multifiliis, where the theront excystment takes only 18-24 h at 23C (Dickerson and Dawe, 1995).

The reason for asynchronous excystment is unclear. There is no relationship between the tomont size and excystment time (Nigrelli and Ruggieri, 1966; Colorni, 1992; Diggles and Lester, 1996a,b). In fact, a large and a small tomont may produce theronts at the same time, even though the smaller tomont undergoes fewer divisions. When tomites do not form until at least 2 weeks, a mass of endoplasm remains undifferentiated and fewer live theronts are produced (Colorni, 1992). Whatever the cause, asynchronous excystment prevents simultaneous exhaustion of all tomonts, facilitates theront dispersal in time and appears so advantageous to C. irritans that the phenomenon should be interpreted as a strategy for survival (Colorni, 1985).

And also this section:

The Australian trophonts stayed on the fish longer, tomonts took longer to excyst and the theronts were larger when fish were infected at 20C compared to 25C (Diggles and Lester, 1996a).

As I am sure you are aware, 72 days is an unusually long time to take for theronts to excyst from tomonts. In most other studies I've seen, 35 days was the longest time it took for theront release. Do you think the cooler 20C water temperature was directly responsible for the prolonged excystment period?

I am needing this information to help determine what might be the proper fallow period if a marine aquarium was infected with Cryptocaryon. I thought less than 72 days might be sufficient if the aquarium was being maintained at a more "reef-like temperature" of 25C, for example. Your expertise in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,
Bobby

Dr. Colorni graciously took the time to respond to me and his reply can be found below:

Dear Bobby,

Thank you for your (continuous) interest in my work.

Undoubtedly, low temperature slows down Cryptocaryon’s metabolism and thus lengthens its life cycle. Indeed 72 days were an exceptional period, but it occurred with the aid of antibiotics in a sterile flask. In nature (and in an aquarium), over more than two months, I would expect bacteria to “gnaw” on the tomont and eventually damage it.

In conclusion, a combination of “reef-like” temperature and non-aseptic conditions should make a quarantine period “less than 72 days”. How long such period should be presumed to be safe remains a difficult question. The bug has millions of years of evolution on its side...!

Sorry I can’t give you a more clear-cut answer.

Keep up the good work,

Angelo

**********************************************************************

Angelo Colorni, Ph.D., Senior Scientist
Retired ! Former Head, Dept. of Pathobiology

National Center for Mariculture
Israel Oceanographic and Limnological Research

- P.O.Box 1212, Eilat 88112, Israel

Research Website: www.ocean.org.il

**********************************************************************

Life is a whim of several billion cells to be you for a while.

 

[Humblefish]

Without a clear-cut answer, I feel it is advisable to continue to go fallow for 72 days (actually 76) for marine ich.

 

[Jamie7907]

I've seen some indications that nitrifying bacteria will survive up to 120f higher temp than required to kill the encysted stage of ich at 104f. Some of this information is saltwater and some freshwater but it stands to reason that bacteria would have a much wider range of acceptable temperatures within which to live than that of a ciliated parasite.

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html
http://www.ecos.ie/wastewater-nitrification-how-it-works/

 

[Humblefish]

@Jamie7907 I believe you are correct. Certain strains of bacteria can even survive exposure to chlorine bleach.