Fed up with Apex

[justingraham]

Well if it helps, I thoroughly enjoy my ApexEL and DOS for AWC and monitoring. Set up was a snap and my life is a LOT easier with it in place. Not to say another system wouldn't provide a similar experience, but don't let others personal frustrations with Apex take away from your enthusiasm on your new system, for what I find to be an excellent product. When the dust settles, I WILL be getting the trident and another DOS to add another aspect of stability to my reef.

Wait until u have a problem

 

[MnFish1]

How can price fixing (everyone charges the same online) not be consumer negative? There is no competition. If it was in the interest of the consumer I could get it from BRS for 20% cheaper because they can get a better price due to volume. That is the benefit of going with them. Same reason everyone goes to Costco or Sams club or Walmart or whatever....

Protecting the little guys is of course a noble pursuit and I agree but making it so that nobody online can even have a "sale" is silly.

In this case it is at best 'consumer neutral'. There is no reason to sell a trident 'on sale' - in fact there is more pressure to sell them at higher prices. But - take a read of this article. MAP is not necessarily 'price fixing'...

1. In store advertising (i.e. one day sale on trident 10 percent off) - does not violate MAP.
2. MAP relates only to advertised prices - for example there is nothing preventing a person from going into their favorite LFS and asking for a 10% discount below MAP.

 

[MnFish1]

How can price fixing (everyone charges the same online) not be consumer negative? There is no competition. If it was in the interest of the consumer I could get it from BRS for 20% cheaper because they can get a better price due to volume. That is the benefit of going with them. Same reason everyone goes to Costco or Sams club or Walmart or whatever....

Protecting the little guys is of course a noble pursuit and I agree but making it so that nobody online can even have a "sale" is silly.

BTW- I believe that Neptune does allow resellers to have sales periodically - but I believe it applies to all sellers. There are ways online retailers ben get around the MAP (ie. only showing the price after the person has the item in his/her cart).

 

[lbacha]

SO lets pretend I'm an LFS - and order 5 Tridents - and lets say I'm BRS and I order 500 Trident. Which company do you think can negotiate the 'better deal' with Neptune. The reason for the MAP (in addition to making it seem 'exclusive') is also to protect little shops that do not order in large quantities (i.e. BRS might be able to lower their price below the price of the smaller LFS).

In any case - I don't see it is consumer negative at all.... It does seem like there is a lot of misunderstanding about what it is. For example - anyone can sell anything on ebay for any price - above or below the MAP.

I agree completely, While MAP pricing my keep you from getting great deals from online vendors as they try to outdo other vendors it does help make it so your LFS can carry EcoTech, kessil, apex, etc. with 2 day shipping and such most people would never purchase such a product from a LFS if they could get it much cheaper online. With Map pricing the LFS can carry the product and have a better chance of selling it. Hard good inventory is already a money sink for small stores and if they had to compete with a price war they would never carry those products as their volume would never justify it.

 

[BZOFIQ]

In this case it is at best 'consumer neutral'. There is no reason to sell a trident 'on sale' - in fact there is more pressure to sell them at higher prices. But - take a read of this article. MAP is not necessarily 'price fixing'...

1. In store advertising (i.e. one day sale on trident 10 percent off) - does not violate MAP.
2. MAP relates only to advertised prices - for example there is nothing preventing a person from going into their favorite LFS and asking for a 10% discount below MAP.

You keep on bringing Trident like its the only product Neptune makes/sells. Trident is unique at this very moment because there is shortage and pent-up demand. The rest of the products are sitting on the shelf in "in stock"mode. MAP pricing doesn't allow sellers to go below their fixed pricing.

 

[MnFish1]

You keep on bringing Trident like its the only product Neptune makes/sells. Trident is unique at this very moment because there is shortage and pent-up demand. The rest of the products are sitting on the shelf in "in stock"mode. MAP pricing doesn't allow sellers to go below their fixed pricing.

So? The sellers agreed to that policy when they took on Neptune Systems products. Its not fixed pricing if the resellers have the right to decline to sell those items. "Price fixing" is EDITED - REMOVED (NOT) a legal concept Price Fixing IS a legal concept- it goes far beyond the MAP. Besides I've already explained how local companies and online retailers can get around the MAP. So - just by that definition - its not price fixing. Its also not price fixing because they can sell it a higher price.

It also doesnt follow that BRS for example would want to sell for less than MAP just because (MAYBE) they got to buy product x for 10% lower than an LFS. In any case MAP is not Neptune specific - so it shouldn't be a reason to 'change from Apex' (which is what the OP is about)

 

[Pntbll687]

SO lets pretend I'm an LFS - and order 5 Tridents - and lets say I'm BRS and I order 500 Trident. Which company do you think can negotiate the 'better deal' with Neptune. The reason for the MAP (in addition to making it seem 'exclusive') is also to protect little shops that do not order in large quantities (i.e. BRS might be able to lower their price below the price of the smaller LFS).

In any case - I don't see it is consumer negative at all.... It does seem like there is a lot of misunderstanding about what it is. For example - anyone can sell anything on ebay for any price - above or below the MAP.

The map price has nothing to do with how much the lfs or brs pays for the product. Does brs get a better price than a small lfs that only orders 2 or 3, yes they do, as they should. There is always a better deal when buying in larger quantities. What it allows is the lfs to "compete" with online stores like BRS in overall price. The lfs is probably not making the same margin as brs on MAP priced items.

As for ebay, anyone can sell on there, BUT, in order to have the product covered by Neptune, it probably has to be bought through an authorized dealer or re-seller.

And just for clarification I'm using Trident/neptune/Apex because that it what the conversation is around. You could very easily substitute any company that has a MAP policy in it's place

 

[MnFish1]

The map price has nothing to do with how much the lfs or brs pays for the product. Does brs get a better price than a small lfs that only orders 2 or 3, yes they do, as they should. There is always a better deal when buying in larger quantities. What it allows is the lfs to "compete" with online stores like BRS in overall price. The lfs is probably not making the same margin as brs on MAP priced items.

As for ebay, anyone can sell on there, BUT, in order to have the product covered by Neptune, it probably has to be bought through an authorized dealer or re-seller.

The first paragraph is exactly what I said....:). And - as to the warranty - you're correct (I believe) - that you need to send in the original sales receipt/proof of purchase to register the product.

 

[Pntbll687]

The first paragraph is exactly what I said....:). And - as to the warranty - you're correct (I believe) - that you need to send in the original sales receipt/proof of purchase to register the product.

HAHAH you're right

I read it as you were thinking map pricing was for dealers as well. My bad!

I work in distribution and it is crazy all the companies that are coming out with MAP policies, and some (who really support independent stores) have come out with IMAP policies, where the map policy is only enforced on online sales.

 

[N2950H]

I don't know the statistics - but I would bet that the reason you see more 'issues' numbers wise with Apex is that there is a far larger installed based of Apex systems as compared to GHL - but who knows the percentage of GHL owners that have had problems.

I know your comment wasn't directed at me, but I'll give my input regardless. I'm less concerned with the number of hardware issues than I am with the number of people having customer service issues.

 

[laverda]

You must work for Neptune. If I purchase an Apex for $500 instead of $700, I’m happy to resell it for $250 instead of $350 (assuming depreciation of 50%) as that saves me $100 overall and the initial price is less. Most people don’t plan to resell their equipment, they buy it to use. I think most people would rather pay less initially than to have to pay more because the company artificially inflated the price.

I do not work for Neptune and am here to learn more about other controller options, as like others I am not happy with the direction Neptune is going with the Apex. Like just about everyone I don't like to pay more for things then I have to. That is why most of my equipment including my tank and controller was purchased used. I would not have a 300 gallon tank if I had to buy it new. I paid zero for my steel stand and 800 for the tank. I got a quote for a new tank alone of $5000.

Seems like you have an issue with capitalism and competition. I get it. So does Neptune. Good for them that they put themselves in that position and have enough money to hire brand image consultants that troll the boards and defend the company.

I believe in capitalism as I was a retail business owner for many years. I used to be what some people refer to as a Fanboy for Neptune. That was before they came out with the Apex. Their older controllers were as reliable as a rock in my experience. I still have an AC2, an AC3Pro and an original Apex. At one time I was excited about the Trident until I learned more and more. I have no intention of buying an Apex 2016 or a Trident at this point and am looking at other options. I especially do not like how Neptune is following the example of companies like HP with the trident.

Exactly and with the proliferation of online sales it is only ever going to be MAP. The little store has little incentive to sell it for less than MAP anyways unless they are a close friend and you get the wink wink price. Why would they give up juicy margins when they know they everyone else is charging the same. There is no incentive to be competitive.

If it was not for MAP the little store would have no incentive to stock them at all, as they would not be able to compete with the price the big vendors would be able to see them for. MAP protects the little guys that buy in small quantities and do not get the volume discounts the big guys get. Why would they stock an item they pay more for then the online seller is selling it for? They would not! They can not if they want to stay in business. That is why there is so much fuss when Wallmart moves into small towns. They put hundreds of merchants out of business with their low quality discounted hazardous products made in China. In their place, they hire minimum wage workers and treat them like garbage.

Let us not derail this thread any further and get back on the subject.

 

[MnFish1]

I believe in capitalism as I was a retail business owner for many years. I used to be what some people refer to as a Fanboy for Neptune. That was before they came out with the Apex. Their older controllers were as reliable as a rock in my experience

This is indeed true - I (mistakenly bought an 'apex gold package' thinking it was the new Apex 2016 a week before they came out... I was a bit disappointed that I didn't get the 'new one'. Needless to say - that has worked flawlessly - with no problem. I bought an apex 2016 a couple weeks later when released - and moved that to the saltwater - and the other to a 200 gallon freshwater. The apex classic continues to work without no problems. The Apex 2016 (chip faults - which nicely they replaced) caused at least 3 crashes of my tank resulting in at least 3000$ of losses...

 

[Adele]

Wait until u have a problem

maybe I will maybe I won't. No system is flawless. I will be remain optimistic.

 

[User1]

I especially do not like how Neptune is following the example of companies like HP with the trident.

First - it is HPE, not HP. That died years ago
Second - Neptune is not splitting their companies (e.g. software / fusion web division to company X, and hardware to company Y, etc)

Not sure what the point of HP was but Neptune != HPE on many fronts.

 

[RobW]

Im new to the hobby and just spent a bunch of cash on an Apex.
I am also an electrical engineer with a focus in controls. Maybe i should of just wrote my own software.
For those guys out there with massive systems perhaps i can help if they are interested in a custom control scheme using industrial hardware.
Its cheaper then one might think

I'm and electrical contractor myself and specialize in home automation.

 

[Paul Sands]

First - it is HPE, not HP. That died years ago
Second - Neptune is not splitting their companies (e.g. software / fusion web division to company X, and hardware to company Y, etc)

Not sure what the point of HP was but Neptune != HPE on many fronts.

I suspect the point was in relation to HP printers and how they use the consumables as a cash cow to milk the consumers. The fact that you have to test alk 8 times a day with the trident and can’t reduce that any further makes it seem like that’s the point.

 

[Potatohead]

I suspect the point was in relation to HP printers and how they use the consumables as a cash cow to milk the consumers. The fact that you have to test alk 8 times a day with the trident and can’t reduce that any further makes it seem like that’s the point.

Just to clarify, it's eight tests total per day. Four alk, two calcium, two magnesium.

 

[MnFish1]

I suspect the point was in relation to HP printers and how they use the consumables as a cash cow to milk the consumers. The fact that you have to test alk 8 times a day with the trident and can’t reduce that any further makes it seem like that’s the point.

Isnt it 4 times/day?

 

[User1]

I suspect the point was in relation to HP printers and how they use the consumables as a cash cow to milk the consumers. The fact that you have to test alk 8 times a day with the trident and can’t reduce that any further makes it seem like that’s the point.

Thanks - I see your point and didn't look at that. That company is HPI now...confusing, right? Snarky aside (not directed at you by any means) - we already beat that poor horse to death with regards to tests x day x regents. But I still get your point.

 

[Paul Sands]

Just to clarify, it's eight tests total per day. Four alk, two calcium, two magnesium.

Whatever. I’ve never had a tank that needed calcium or magnesium tested twice a day or even daily for that matter. What’s the point of making it so that the user can’t change these to whatever they desire other than the company wants a consistent revenue stream from overpriced consumables.

Edit: Wow! The reagents are $50/month at the lowest setting. So it costs almost as much to run it for one single year as it does to just purchase it.