Fish immune to disease?

atoll

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
3,159
Reaction score
4,720
Location
Wales UK
if we scroll pages and pages in the fish disease forum, what methods do we see getting applied

show me a fish disease forum addressed by Paul, or Lasse, where multiple tanks are fixed of disease live time.

Lasse no it’s not enough at all, we need you to help in the fish disease forum where work is needed


*in the fish disease forum, medical applications and techniques rule the day for a reason, repeatability.

getting to work solely by our own tank example is insulating and protective for claims. Someone start up a help thread in the fish disease forum, let’s see it live time compared to current techniques

With all due respects I think you miss the point about posting about our methods on the diseases forum. I, Paul and perhaps Lasse have posted on there but most people don't want to know about how we keep our fish disease free. People who post on there tend to have a particular disease issue and want a medication cure they don't appear to want to know about prevention in the first instance.

Our posts either get ignored as we are witch doctors, lucky or just plain idiots that haven't a clue what we are talking about and are dangerous. So they often struggle with their medications, loose fish and other cure them often the disease returns even after QT. What do we know, what can we tell them? The answer is often nothing they want to hear.

To be fair, I can't say I blame them with all the disease experts advising them the only way to cure your fish is via their methods. We all know lots of fish die in QT and let's not go into the reasons for that here, it's been done to death.

I know little of fish disease as I like to write from experience and I have little experience of them and certainly not for over 30 years.
 

WVNed

The fish are staring at me with hungry eyes.
View Badges
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
6,068
Reaction score
24,703
Location
Hurricane, WV
I really prefer to think I am adding animals to a system that isn't going to challenge their immunity because it is kept in a way that is appropriate for them. The animals come from the sea and so do the diseases. If the animals can survive in the sea I hope to let them survive in my tank in the same way.

When I receive animals I float the bags and add water from the tank to them several times. When I release the animals the whole contents go in. That includes all the cooties. I just added 50 snails, 25 hermits and a goby.

When I set up the 240 my 75 was going to be a QT for it. Instead it has 2 lions, 2 eels, a tang and a butterfly in it.
 
Last edited:

atoll

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
3,159
Reaction score
4,720
Location
Wales UK
I really prefer to think I am adding animals to a system that isn't going to challenge their immunity because it is kept in a way that is appropriate for them.
There are a number of ways you can look at that. Perhaps explain in what way.
 

WVNed

The fish are staring at me with hungry eyes.
View Badges
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
6,068
Reaction score
24,703
Location
Hurricane, WV
There are a number of ways you can look at that. Perhaps explain in what way.
I simply follow all the old rules. 1 pound per gallon of live rock. Lots of flow. Good lights. Big skimmer. Water that is clean and clear without passing through some kind of straining media. A large clean up crew. Good food in several varieties and live food for some fish. I don't mess with the sand bed. It is stratified and stirring just kills it. Tanks big enough for the animals I want to keep.
I got to build a system without any limitations to hinder me.
29 gallon refugium with 200 watts of lights over it. It is a choked mess of algae that I pull handfuls out and toss.
All those threads about doing this or that. I do it all.
UV 80 watts
Ozone on controller
2 part on doser
trace elements on doser
Nopox on doser 40 ml/day
1200ml of biopellets in a reactor
300ml of GFO in a reactor
SRO 5000 skimmer
Lifereef 36 inch skimmer as an ozone reactor
I run MH/T-5 and LED lighting. It both works.

This wasn't planned beyond the 8 foot tank to start. I added the elements as I decided I needed them.
It runs itself now pretty much as a steady state system. I dont use a controller.
Those tiny fish I got in the mail or brought home from Petco have done nicely.

 
Galactic Coral Live Sale

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
13,664
Reaction score
40,671
Location
Long Island NY
*in the fish disease forum, medical applications and techniques rule the day for a reason, repeatability.
You can read about many tanks on the disease forum about quarantining but with Lasse, mine and Atoll there isn't much to read because our tanks don't get sick. Most people (except for me) don't write about how healthy our tanks are as it isn't that exciting. We don't write about fish diseases because our fish never get sick so you won't find us writing about it on disease forums.

This was one of the last posts I wrote this week on my tank thread. Not very interesting at all but I rarely, if ever see posts like this. 90% of posts start with the word "HELP":

From last Sunday.

My tank is running excellently. All the fish that were spawning are still spawning and I am happy that my new long nose butterfly and my copperband are getting along like brothers, or sisters. ;Bucktooth

They hunt together and hang out like best friends. I like that. My Janss pipefish is past his lifespan but still looks great as does my little blue stripe pipefish.

All the other fish look great, batter than I do. ;Joyful

I know so many people have so many problems and I feel for them. I am not sure why there are so many problems. Maybe I have been doing something wrong. :rolleyes:

My DIY algae scrubber is scrubbing perfectly and my 25 year old DIY skimmer is skimming nicely.

I would imagine my reverse UG filter is doing what it is supposed to do but I can't see it so I don't know.

Brittle stars are doing the macarana and I assume dancing with the bristle worms of which I have many.
No problems to report so far but I hear after 51 years problems start to pop up. ;)


Now at this point in my life after thousands of posts and writing a book I am done. I am done hearing all these silly reasons why our tanks are immune. I just can't argue about it any more.
Call my tank lucky or call me a liar and go and quarantine if you think that is the way to go. Good luck with that.

I am going to go look at my Social Security check now and maybe go sit in a rocking chair with a blanket and my cat. First I need to go buy a cat. ;Meh
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
18,010
Reaction score
14,706
Location
tejas
What’s missing any way it’s sliced is a simple multi page work thread where your tank can’t be the focal point.

giving people years to mature a tank and then collecting feedback simply isn’t the same as us watching it unfold live time, too many omissions occur without a focused work thread and in that absence we can’t develop patterns that can be used to save fish at the rate they’re being saved using the stickies in this forum.


every request for work thread details/ getting to completely see the build and maturation and disease protocols is afforded by Ttm, fallow and qt.

you could try and start the thread that Hudu started, and tons of people would sign up for this live time guidance. Can’t post one single pic of your tank, has to be all theirs. Can’t use peers tanks either, must be based on the entrants tanks solely.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
18,010
Reaction score
14,706
Location
tejas

case in point. Your method can’t be applied in work threads, we can’t establish patterns

We tried to get entrants and simply nobody will sign up though they love reading about your tank no doubt at all.

any discussion about your method changes into that and away from inspectable outcomes logged on file.

conversely, when people said peroxide was bad we made work threads with one thousand reefs still running, not my own, showing it’s awesome vs bad.

same for sand rinsing, everyone said it was bad until we arranged three thousand reefs to show its awesome, not bad, in work threads that use other people’s reefs.


your method always gets to escape work thread scrutiny. I think you should change to driving new tank participation in some way.
 
Last edited:

Thaxxx

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Messages
1,110
Reaction score
1,687
Location
Central Florida
The word Quarantine needs to be clarified.
When covid hit. To some extent all of us were quarantined. But we didn't take any medications.
Fish quarantine does Not mean medication.
If you mean medication, say it.
Fish observation and feeding before entering the DT IMO is just a smart thing to do. If you don't do that, your rolling the dice with the current state of disease in fish imports theses days.
 

atoll

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
3,159
Reaction score
4,720
Location
Wales UK
Well I for one can't afford a new tank starting from scratch so as to prove what I already believe in. However, I have run a number of tanks the way I do each with the same results.
 
Lazys Coral House

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
13,664
Reaction score
40,671
Location
Long Island NY
Brandon my Buddy. I already posted a thread on how "I" would personally start a new tank with new water.
It is also in my book and 500 other places. Most people will refuse to do it correctly so if their tanks crash, they shouldn't call it my system. They should call it their system. :cool:

 

davidcalgary29

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 24, 2020
Messages
552
Reaction score
457
Location
Peace River, Alberta
Why not quarantine...and then use Paul B's and Lasse's ideas?
The trick is getting others tanks free of disease not just Paul’s, using Paul’s methods. Yet to be seen in an orderly, clear rolling post. Lots of single examples exist, but not one single rolling post exists where someone shows how to make new reefs comply. Those always devolve into 100 page theory threads, safe from having to do any live time work on file for proof.

not one single work thread exists for these proofs, yet we have no trouble making work threads composed of *others tanks* for most other claims in reefing, take that fwiw.

having to make proofs as work threads means people can’t omit details etc, it’s pure live time accountability


fallow and quarantine sure have work threads, its amazing to me the ‘best’ system gets to run with zero testing in public at all while the methods working for the public in thousands of pages using others tanks is the bad method.
Hey, I'm with you for much of you're saying...but I have a feeling that this is going to devolve into one of those 100 page theory threads. Just saying. :)

Why not QT and then follow Paul B's and Lasse's advice? They have some great ideas for running a healthy tank, even if I'm skeptical that they can keep new builds disease-free. This isn't an either/or situation.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
18,010
Reaction score
14,706
Location
tejas
That is a great idea it really is. I dont disagree with Paul’s method / Lasse and Atoll’s tanks are pro as well. these are tanks I have often referenced in various posts to make points having nothing to do with disease, longevity credits given / I just like to see things tested in work threads.


we knew for a fact peroxide had potential when Justin C first mentioned it as a handy coral tool, about 2009 or ten. But it was new, hated, not any chemistry forum participants agreed it had any use at all, some forums banned us for being a proponent.


thereeftank.com called, it requested a second chance at perfecting hobby forecasting/ doh

but nano reef nerds knew peroxide could save tanks, faster than current methods, so we started pressing from the bottom up for testing. we were triumphantly parading pics of before and after GHA tanks feeling on top of the world and then overnite it seems about 20-40 reports came in of dead lysmata shrimp


many many, it felt like a gut punch bc we intended to help not harm, this is what work threads do.


by focusing solely on others reefs once we know a method is valid, as Pauls is, new details emerge that hyper evolve the practice very fast

left to only the artists to develop it’s too slow to reach its potential. The gold in these methods is its application to new tank build arrangements so someone get to soliciting some participants it’s fun you’ll get hooked.
 

WVNed

The fish are staring at me with hungry eyes.
View Badges
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
6,068
Reaction score
24,703
Location
Hurricane, WV
Well I for one can't afford a new tank starting from scratch so as to prove what I already believe in. However, I have run a number of tanks the way I do each with the same results.

It wouldn't matter. My tanks aren't old. Less than 2 years. Our reality doesnt fit the current zeitgeist.
Everything is dirty and diseased unless it is fixed by humans.
I keep my fish the same way I keep my cats and dogs. If I do my part they rarely need any special intervention by me.
My biggest issue is humans cant keep the utilities on anymore if even mild weather occurs.
 

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
13,664
Reaction score
40,671
Location
Long Island NY
All the parasites have predators and older tanks have a higher probability of having them in balance with the parasites.

IMO the tank's immunity is as if not more important than the fish immunity.
Interesting. :cool:
 
Fritz

atoll

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
3,159
Reaction score
4,720
Location
Wales UK
"Everything is dirty and diseased unless it is fixed by humans.:
Really? We are often better at making things worse. You can't get better than mother nature she has perfected her ways over millions of years. Man has contrived to turn it upside down. Man is part of the problem not the solution. Mother nature was doing just fine until man decided to interfere.
 

WVNed

The fish are staring at me with hungry eyes.
View Badges
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
6,068
Reaction score
24,703
Location
Hurricane, WV
"Everything is dirty and diseased unless it is fixed by humans.:
Really? We are often better at making things worse. You can't get better than mother nature she has perfected her ways over millions of years. Man has contrived to turn it upside down. Man is part of the problem not the solution. Mother nature was doing just fine until man decided to interfere.
I was being sarcastic. I am in complete agreement with you.
 

Jake_the_reefer

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 19, 2019
Messages
2,522
Reaction score
2,048
I wouldn't say any fish are immune. When I had velvet in my 20g I lost my wrasse and clowns. However my yellow watchman goby stayed in a velvet infected tank for 2 months without showing a single sign of sickness. The only thing of note is I constantly saw my cleaner shrimp on him possibly eating the disease off his skin. It's also entirely possible I had a watchman goby that was resistant
 

davidcalgary29

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 24, 2020
Messages
552
Reaction score
457
Location
Peace River, Alberta
I wouldn't say any fish are immune. When I had velvet in my 20g I lost my wrasse and clowns. However my yellow watchman goby stayed in a velvet infected tank for 2 months without showing a single sign of sickness. The only thing of note is I constantly saw my cleaner shrimp on him possibly eating the disease off his skin. It's also entirely possible I had a watchman goby that was resistant
No, I agree. The only plausible explanation that makes sense to me is the "reduced propagule" theorem: some mature tanks have developed predatory biota that keep levels of parasites at a very low level. I don't think it's true that fish never get ich in those tanks, but rather that they'll only get a few (at most) parasites at one time because the population is suppressed. And people are unlikely to see only one spot on a fish, or dismiss it as another problem.
 
Fritz

HOW MUCH DO YOU LIKE ZOANTHIDS?

  • LOVE them

    Votes: 372 44.2%
  • Like them

    Votes: 229 27.2%
  • They're "ok"

    Votes: 161 19.1%
  • Don't like them

    Votes: 45 5.3%
  • Hate them

    Votes: 25 3.0%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 10 1.2%
Reef Nutrition
Top