Fish immune to disease?

Paul B

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No, I agree. The only plausible explanation that makes sense to me is the "reduced propagule" theorem: some mature tanks have developed predatory biota that keep levels of parasites at a very low level.
Maybe, but you are forgetting that all of the old tanks were not always old. At one time my tank was one day old. I had more problems than everyone on here put together but in my defense, no one knew anything about salt water fish. If I were to start a new tank now (God Forbid) after having made all the mistakes and even invented a few, I "think" I could do it better.

Even in those prehistory days it only took me 5 or 6 years to figure it out.

I did say I "think" because I have not started a tank in decades. I don't know what happened to the thousands of tanks that have been started when the hobby started because it seems the only one left is mine. Maybe everyone from those days died. I don't know but I am old.

The hobby has been in the US for 50 years and yet the disease forums are thriving with the same diseases we had half a century ago, maybe worse, and no, the fish are not sicker now.

I still see that silly Burgess Axelrod and that other guy study from 40 years ago about the lifespan of parasites. That was very interesting and I remember when they came out with it.` I also thought it was a waste of time then.

Now we are involved in a pandemic from a virus. I personally don't care what the lifespan of the virus is or if temperature affects it. That knowledge is not going to make me safe from it as long as I know not to stand near someone who has it or touch them. (which we still don't know if that does anything)

But in any case we "know" (hopefully) that we can prevent it by getting a shot, "or" being exposed to the virus which will give us antibodies to it.

If we were fish, that virus would have been circulating in the sea with us since time began and we would have built up an immunity to it.

We have no immunity to Covid because it was just "invented," designed," fabricated" or transferred from some kind of livestock. But however it got here, we didn't have immunity because no one was exposed to it.

Fish in the sea are exposed to everything because the sea is well mixed so a fish would have some kind of immunity from ich, velvet, flukes and even intestinal worms.

By quarantining for an "extended" amount of time, a time frame we don't know and probably changes with the fish species and parasite species, we are weakening the fishes immune system as we all know, or should know, we need to be exposed and occasionally keep being exposed to stay immune.

Everybody in Europe didn't die from Smallpox, but almost all the Native Americans who were exposed did. Europeans had an immunity because everyone in Europe had some exposure to the disease and that exposure happened constantly. I am sure the Europeans who lived in filthy conditions and didn't have healthy food died.

I am proposing that in a fish tank there needs to be living parasites and harmful bacteria to keep everyone immune.

That concept is so foreign to almost everyone that no one is willing to set up a tank and have pathogens in it. But a tank with no pathogens, not even if the Pope himself or Jacques Cousteau started it will "always" have disease problems. Always. There can't be a tank in existence that is so sterile that no disease organism is going to get in there. (unless you want to constantly take out the fish to medicate)

If you buy anything live, even a snail or copepod there is an opportunity for infection which is why there are absolutely no tanks that were quarantined or medicated still around from many years ago. It is all but impossible.

In such a tank you can't feed live food or even fresh food as something like a clam from a supermarket is full of parasites and bacteria.

So Brandon, no one would be willing to start up an immune tank because it is outside the box and the disease forum is so well visited that these days, unfortunately, fish with disease is the norm.

I myself am to old, and to busy taking care of my wife to start a new tank and if someone were willing to do it, it would take years for it to become a very healthy, thriving tank no matter what they did.

But if we look at statistics, the only "old" healthy tanks I know of were not medicated or quarantined for an extended time and none of them are existing for a long time in a state where fish are added, they are spawning and dying of old age.

As you know I have been asking for decades for even one tank that was quarantined, and the fish were placed in a tank where everything is quarantined or medicated. Such a tank where there are no living pathogens. That tank does not exist.

People always ask me for scientific studies. There are no long term scientific studies because who would pay to keep ornamental fish healthy?
A long term study is hobbyists like ourselves who can do this. Just look at the statistics.

This hobby is now so full of things like Roaphas, GFO, Chemi Clean, Prizapro and carbon that it makes my head spin. I don't even know what most of that stuff is but I do know it is not natural.

Fish just need natural like in the sea and they will be fine. A tank to me should be a living, sustainable eco system that goes on forever with no problems.

Maybe it's me. OK I am finished. :rolleyes:
 
BRS

Paul B

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I posted this someplace else, probably while I was being held captive in a quarantine tank while being doused with Agent Orange and tang.

I am an old coot. Let me see, besides my old fish I added probably 10 fish in the last two years. My hippo tang is less than a year old and my copperband is only a few months old. My long nose butterfly is a few weeks old as is my filefish. I have a pair of Bangai Cardinals a couple of months ago. None of them were medicated or quarantined. Right from the bag to the tank with a very short stay on my workbench of about 15 minutes to acclimate them to some of the cool stuff I am working on. :rolleyes:

Good morning Lasse and Atoll. :cool:

I have not tested nitrite in decades, if ever, and I do have a nitrate test kit someplace so if I can find it, I can test that. For the majority of the years my tank has been running my nitrates were very high. Sometimes 160. I think for the last 3 years, since I moved to this new house they are under 20 but I will test it when I get time and if my test kit didn't turn into tar.

My corals, including the SPS are growing nicely but they are not my main interest as they seem kind of benign to me and just sit there doing their thing. Not much going on there. My main interest are the fish and their spawning ability. As you know all of my fish that can spawn do so constantly and I know that if they are not pregnant, they are not healthy. That never happens.

I also care about the mental state of my fish. In my book I state that you can tell a lot from the fishes health just by their expression.

When you stop laughing I will continue.
I know Lasse and Atoll can see this as it takes years to read the expression of a fish. :unsure: I can read the expression on Jay right now as he doesn't believe me. You can tell if a dog is happy from looking at it and also a fish, but not as easy, especially fish without eyelashes. :rolleyes:

Fish like copperbands are very easy to read as their eyes are able to turn forward and you can tell they are interested in what they are looking at. They are curious and healthy ones will intently stare at things or study them even if they don't want to eat it. Some Wrasses do this also.



Of course some fish like Bangai cardinals are harder to read and just swim around going "Doot da Do, Doot Da do" with very little going on in their minuscule brains. It is not their fault because Bangai Cardinals are the shortest living fish with a lifespan of only about 4 years.
This is a very old Bangai near the end of his life.


Remember I didn't say I could read the mind of a fish. I wish. But after many years you can tell in a few seconds if it is a healthy "happy" fish. Look at a fish in medication or a bare quarantined tank and you can easily see the difference.

When a friend of mine was the Mgr of a Lfs I used to walk through and tell him: this fish will die in two days, this one in a week and he used to laugh. But after over 60 years of starring at fish, you can tell.

Of course a healthy fish will have a velvet looking skin. Not the disease. Not a scale or fin ray damaged in any way because healthy fish heal almost in hours, not days unless you medicate them. That short circuits the function of their slime which is a living thing not like the skin on the top of my head. Their living slime easily repairs damage because it is loaded with anti bacterial and anti parasitic substances along with a supply of nutrients it needs to repair skin.



Look at this Hippo tang. Most captive hippo's have just the beginning of HLLE that you can barely see in small whitish spots on their face near their lateral line. No trace of that here. Yellow tangs almost always have that unless they are in the sea where they are totally yellow without a trace of white. People look at those fish and call them healthy but they rarely are.

These guys, and all fish that lay eggs in a nest (not egg scattererss like tangs). should always be filled with eggs like this one is. She lays eggs constantly and many fish will even leak eggs as they swim because they are so full.





See this purple fish. Look at her stomach. (I forgot what kind of fish that is but I have it for a few years)

These guys are also constantly spawning and I never have to feed them. They live on whatever is growing on the algae in the back. They spend their entire time in a hold they dug in the back and I think they go under the UG filter.




Watchmans are also constant spawners which are always full of eggs. I have had a pair of these in my tank for decades and they live about 10 years and stay together just like my wife and me. :p



Fish are very robust and never get sick on their own. We make them sick. My fish are there for me to enjoy, not try to cure constantly and the condition of my fish is the same condition they would be in the sea.
Are all your quarantined or medicated fish living to their full potential with no problems except where to spawn?
Is all their skin healthy with never a scale missing? Do they always eat?

Unfortunately healthy fish "play" a lot and can jump high. I don't have a sump so there are many places where my fish can jump out and that is how I lose the majority of them. I think I got the tank now to where it is hard for them to get out but not 100%.

I lost my 2 ruby red dragonettes, almost all of my wrasses, This guy


And many others, but never, not once have I lost any fish from any communicable disease.
Fish will rarely get pop eye and one of my cardinals has a severs case now which I could cure in a few seconds but I would have to dismantle the tank to catch him.
My last copperband, after ten years developed some kind of neurological conditions where she couldn't see straight so she couldn't catch food.

A few years ago my eyes did that and I had surgery to tighten up the muscle. But I had insurance, something my copperband didn't have. :confused:
 

atoll

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I haven't tested for ammonia or nitrite in over 30 years. Nitrate and phosphate I do now and again along with KH and calcium but my kits tend to be well out of date before I get anywhere near the end of them.

I think there are a lot of people who keep fish who don't really look properly at them unless the fish shows obvious signs of a problem. I once wrote a short article for a magazine about how to watch your fish some of it tongue in cheek but still very true.

When you have a fish you know well you know how it's doing or if there maybe a problem with it and it's not just about if its eating or it's body.

I thought fish spawning was a natural regular thing but reading some posts on here it appears not. Mind you, you have to start with a pair or often just 2 then let them form a pair.
I have a pair of Fiji damsels which are little %#[email protected] and decided to kill my 2 newly introduced firefish. They may have to go unfortunately even though the spawn all the time.
 

LionFishReeferMom

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I posted this someplace else, probably while I was being held captive in a quarantine tank while being doused with Agent Orange and tang.

I am an old coot. Let me see, besides my old fish I added probably 10 fish in the last two years. My hippo tang is less than a year old and my copperband is only a few months old. My long nose butterfly is a few weeks old as is my filefish. I have a pair of Bangai Cardinals a couple of months ago. None of them were medicated or quarantined. Right from the bag to the tank with a very short stay on my workbench of about 15 minutes to acclimate them to some of the cool stuff I am working on. :rolleyes:

Good morning Lasse and Atoll. :cool:

I have not tested nitrite in decades, if ever, and I do have a nitrate test kit someplace so if I can find it, I can test that. For the majority of the years my tank has been running my nitrates were very high. Sometimes 160. I think for the last 3 years, since I moved to this new house they are under 20 but I will test it when I get time and if my test kit didn't turn into tar.

My corals, including the SPS are growing nicely but they are not my main interest as they seem kind of benign to me and just sit there doing their thing. Not much going on there. My main interest are the fish and their spawning ability. As you know all of my fish that can spawn do so constantly and I know that if they are not pregnant, they are not healthy. That never happens.

I also care about the mental state of my fish. In my book I state that you can tell a lot from the fishes health just by their expression.

When you stop laughing I will continue.
I know Lasse and Atoll can see this as it takes years to read the expression of a fish. :unsure: I can read the expression on Jay right now as he doesn't believe me. You can tell if a dog is happy from looking at it and also a fish, but not as easy, especially fish without eyelashes. :rolleyes:

Fish like copperbands are very easy to read as their eyes are able to turn forward and you can tell they are interested in what they are looking at. They are curious and healthy ones will intently stare at things or study them even if they don't want to eat it. Some Wrasses do this also.



Of course some fish like Bangai cardinals are harder to read and just swim around going "Doot da Do, Doot Da do" with very little going on in their minuscule brains. It is not their fault because Bangai Cardinals are the shortest living fish with a lifespan of only about 4 years.
This is a very old Bangai near the end of his life.


Remember I didn't say I could read the mind of a fish. I wish. But after many years you can tell in a few seconds if it is a healthy "happy" fish. Look at a fish in medication or a bare quarantined tank and you can easily see the difference.

When a friend of mine was the Mgr of a Lfs I used to walk through and tell him: this fish will die in two days, this one in a week and he used to laugh. But after over 60 years of starring at fish, you can tell.

Of course a healthy fish will have a velvet looking skin. Not the disease. Not a scale or fin ray damaged in any way because healthy fish heal almost in hours, not days unless you medicate them. That short circuits the function of their slime which is a living thing not like the skin on the top of my head. Their living slime easily repairs damage because it is loaded with anti bacterial and anti parasitic substances along with a supply of nutrients it needs to repair skin.



Look at this Hippo tang. Most captive hippo's have just the beginning of HLLE that you can barely see in small whitish spots on their face near their lateral line. No trace of that here. Yellow tangs almost always have that unless they are in the sea where they are totally yellow without a trace of white. People look at those fish and call them healthy but they rarely are.

These guys, and all fish that lay eggs in a nest (not egg scattererss like tangs). should always be filled with eggs like this one is. She lays eggs constantly and many fish will even leak eggs as they swim because they are so full.





See this purple fish. Look at her stomach. (I forgot what kind of fish that is but I have it for a few years)

These guys are also constantly spawning and I never have to feed them. They live on whatever is growing on the algae in the back. They spend their entire time in a hold they dug in the back and I think they go under the UG filter.




Watchmans are also constant spawners which are always full of eggs. I have had a pair of these in my tank for decades and they live about 10 years and stay together just like my wife and me. :p



Fish are very robust and never get sick on their own. We make them sick. My fish are there for me to enjoy, not try to cure constantly and the condition of my fish is the same condition they would be in the sea.
Are all your quarantined or medicated fish living to their full potential with no problems except where to spawn?
Is all their skin healthy with never a scale missing? Do they always eat?

Unfortunately healthy fish "play" a lot and can jump high. I don't have a sump so there are many places where my fish can jump out and that is how I lose the majority of them. I think I got the tank now to where it is hard for them to get out but not 100%.

I lost my 2 ruby red dragonettes, almost all of my wrasses, This guy


And many others, but never, not once have I lost any fish from any communicable disease.
Fish will rarely get pop eye and one of my cardinals has a severs case now which I could cure in a few seconds but I would have to dismantle the tank to catch him.
My last copperband, after ten years developed some kind of neurological conditions where she couldn't see straight so she couldn't catch food.

A few years ago my eyes did that and I had surgery to tighten up the muscle. But I had insurance, something my copperband didn't have. :confused:
Did your Ruby Red Dragonets jump out of the tank? I ask because I was shocked to find our tiny one in the breeder box at the top of the 90 gallon tank. It never swam that high up before, always just scoots along the bottom of the tank or over the rocks. But some how it swam to the top of the tank and must have jumped Free Willy style into the box. I was so grateful he was ok just hanging out in there. I felt like someone was playing a prank on me.
 

Paul B

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Did your Ruby Red Dragonets jump out of the tank?
Yes, first the female, then the male. I try to cover all empty spaces but it is hard in a tank with no sump. It's a shame too because they were spawning.

My mandarins also jumped and I have lost a few of them like that. But when them and the Ruby Reds spawn, they swim up to the top and I guess they get all excited. :rolleyes:



 
BRS

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Yes, first the female, then the male. I try to cover all empty spaces but it is hard in a tank with no sump. It's a shame too because they were spawning.

My mandarins also jumped and I have lost a few of them like that. But when them and the Ruby Reds spawn, they swim up to the top and I guess they get all excited. :rolleyes:



Thanks! Looking for a mesh cover. Bulk Reef Supply has them but their measurements are weird.
 

Paul B

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I don't want a mesh cover but I have 8" wide plexiglass around the back of my tank at a 45 degree angle. It is up against my lights and the bottom part is at the rim of my tank. I cut out holes for tubes and things. This prevented fish from jumping in the back. The hinged cover is in the front which goes against the tan and up to the ceiling and on the right side of the tank I have another piece of acrylic covering that end. Now they can still jump on the left of my tank where I have two powerheads. I never lost a fish on that side and am afraid to look because I know they will now jump, especially if they read this. :oops:

This is the top of my tank from the left side where they can still jump.
Those are mangroves on the far end. I am babysitting them for a friend.
002.JPG
 
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ThRoewer

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Not all diseases are cut from the same cloth. It is thought that if a fish survives Cryptocaryon, some resistance persists for perhaps 6 months or so. Neobenedenia flukes do not seem to create a resistance in fish, so reinfection occurs if the fish is exposed again. Viral diseases impart a strong immunity in fish that overcome them- I’ve never seen a fish get lymphocystis more than once. In all cases, propagule pressure - the number of parasites assaulting the fish - affects how a fish can fight it off.
Jay
Fish can acquire a level of protection against Neobenedenia and other Monogeneans. See attached research papers.

As for Cryptocaryon resistance, the 6 months apply only if the parasite is no longer present. The immunity will persist as long as Cryptocaryon is present in the system to trigger an immune response.
 

Attachments

  • Acquired protection against Neobenedenia girellae in Japanese flounder.pdf
    733.4 KB · Views: 7
  • Immune mechanisms in fish skin against monogeneans - a model - Folia_fol-199901-0001.pdf
    1.2 MB · Views: 11

brandon429

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what good are attached research papers when in the disease forum they need the actual outcomes to be present

they do explain a mechanism for Paul's fish being immune to those diseases but my gosh its not really happening outside his tank very much, we can see clearly.
 

atoll

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they do explain a mechanism for Paul's fish being immune to those diseases but my gosh its not really happening outside his tank very much, we can see clearly.

What makes you think few outside Paul's tank arent experiencing similar results to Paul's? OK so maybe its because its ingrained into folk law that you are doomed to failure if you dont medicate and or QT and is not accepted by the "experts" and those who sell lotions and potions.

I know a number of long established reefers who do similar to myself and Paul but they stopped posting on forums due to.personal attacks and insults after all we are practicing witchcraft or are liars.

Paul's taken some flack on here and on other forums and so have I. We are extremely lucky of course and we don't know what we are talking about, the list goes on. Why should anybody come on here, post their ways, show results to be ridiculed by somebody who has probably never done similar to what we practice? Then only to be snipped at and ridiculed for our methods. After a while many just say"you know what it's not worth it" and walk away. All I can say is Paul has very thick skin and continues to answer similar questions time and time again.

I don't know how he does it, maybe it's shell shock from Vietnam.
 
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I don’t like harsh meds so I did hybrid TTM and feed the fish live worms and LRS. Best of both worlds IMO.
 

brandon429

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Even as far as web forum anecdotes go, when this forum shows patterning then procedures behind the patterns will be reinforced. Currently there’s a wide wide gap between published data and today’s posts here, as well as all posts coming this month. Maybe eventually something will catch on but currently disease is simply rampant.
 

atoll

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Maybe eventually something will catch on but currently disease is simply rampant.

Whose tanks are diseased those who are medicating, QTing not feeding the right foods not creating the right environment for their fish stressed out fish or some other reasons?certainly not the tanks of people who I know that don't believe in QTing and medicating but practice similar to myself and Paul.

We have the same on UK forums and Facebook. How I and my friends keep our fish has been proven over many years and many tanks with the same success and results. That can't be ignored but people do.

That's fine but to the people who keep saying you must QT and or you must medicate I am sorry but plenty of us not only disagree but have proven them wrong. The hows and whatfors have been well documented many times and they work and that is what matters at the end of the day to most anyway.
 

Paul B

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, I just came back from my favorite (but filthy) LFS with 4 fish. A beautiful red tail file, some kind f black gobi with long yellow fins which I have never seen before and 2 cardinals that I have never seen before and neither did the owner and he has that business there for fifty years. They are in the back someplace and I can't get a picture of them right now.

$45.00 for all 4 fish which I think is pretty good. The gobi, whatever it is was ten bucks.

After about a 15 minute acclimation, because the water they were in was very low in salt, they are in my tank doing the macarana.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Fish can acquire a level of protection against Neobenedenia and other Monogeneans. See attached research papers.

As for Cryptocaryon resistance, the 6 months apply only if the parasite is no longer present. The immunity will persist as long as Cryptocaryon is present in the system to trigger an immune response.
Thanks, I've seen the one paper, but not the other. The level of protection afforded simply isn't strong enough to reduce epizootics in public aquariums - we see that all the time...fish can battle Neobenedenia for literally years if not treated correctly. I presume the same issue would apply to home aquariums.

Jay
 
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I am sorry and you can make up your own mind but I feel "all" fish can become "totally" immune from every communicable disease. There are a few tanks on here that are long running and never had any disease.

My own reef just hit it's 50th birthday and no fish in about 40 years has had any communicable disease. I have not lost one fish to disease in that time and I have never quarantined or medicated.

It is very easy but many people on here will just tell you it is luck so I am going to keep my tank running another 50 years just for kicks and at 100 years old I will see if people still think it's luck. :p

First off. I love yours posts in all the threads you chime in on.
I do have a couple questions that you may have answered, if so I’m sorry.

What do you think would happen to one of your fish in another’s aquarium, do you think it would maintain its immunity?

I could be wrong, but is it really truly possible to be immune to a parasite opposed to a virus? I think of it like a tape worm, I don’t think it’s possible for a human to become immune? I probably don’t understand the differences of parasites.

I fully intend to try QT on my current build, if I fail I’m going to attempt your method lol. I have done ich management since 2012, I have lost fish to it but never old fish only the new additions.
 

atoll

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First off. I love yours posts in all the threads you chime in on.
I do have a couple questions that you may have answered, if so I’m sorry.

What do you think would happen to one of your fish in another’s aquarium, do you think it would maintain its immunity?

I could be wrong, but is it really truly possible to be immune to a parasite opposed to a virus? I think of it like a tape worm, I don’t think it’s possible for a human to become immune? I probably don’t understand the differences of parasites.

I fully intend to try QT on my current build, if I fail I’m going to attempt your method lol. I have done ich management since 2012, I have lost fish to it but never old fish only the new additions.

Ask yourself why only the new additions died.
 

Ardeus

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We're probably looking at the effects of a combination of different factors: the fish immune system and its history and how it's affected by food and stress levels and the tank itself, that can harbor predators of the parasites.

Anyone here remembers seeing an experiment with cryptocaryon where they found out that the parasite had a limited number of life cycles provided no new strains were introduced in the tank?
 

Lasse

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The level of protection afforded simply isn't strong enough to reduce epizootics in public aquariums - we see that all the time...fish can battle Neobenedenia for literally years if not treated correctly.
There is a huge difference between occurrence of a possible pathogen and a disease caused by that microorganism. An active immune system does not hinder occurrence of a pathogen but it hinder (in most cases) a disease. However - the immune system can be lowered by stress and and other environmental issues. As an example - most fishes is infected by mycobacteria but very few (in a normal situation) have mycobacteriosis - with other words an active disease.

You are of cause familiar with this drawing


For me - the most important thing is to try too adapt the new fishes to my own aquariums microorganisms - for me - it is more likely that my aquarium have developed a system with possible pathogen microorganisms compared with the fishes just being catch out in the wild. Most people here concentrate to hinder a possible pathogen microorganism to enter into the aquarium - I´m more concerned of hinder already established microorganism to be pathogenic to the newcomers

The optimal way would be to have the newcomers isolated in a separate aquarium that´s like a normal aquarium. Observe and if a disease occur - move it to a treatment aquarium. 2 to 3 weeks before introduction to the DT - do smaller WC with help of the water from the DT on a regular basis (WC each 1 - 4 days. This of two reasons - 1) vaccination and 2) give the same smell.

For the moment I can´t do this way - therefore I introduce my newcomers to my refugium. There is no other established fish and plenty of pods. They will get the full dose of my microorganism directly but it is a calm place without any other fish that can bully them. Normally 95 - 99 % will make it through these 2 - 3 weeks I have them in the refugium. I have notice that when I introduce them to the DT - there is no of my old fish that even note they are coming - is just as usally. During this time - they have not be able to see each others - only been in the same water. I did (in the 70 - 80:ties) some experiments with very aggressive cichlids species and conclude that the most possible factor that could be involved in less bullying of newcomers was that the smell was the same. With these species - we always had them in a seperate tank for 2 - 3 weeks and did WC each 3 -4 day with help of the supposed DT:s water. The result was the same - lesser aggressive patterns regardless if they could see each other during the QT or not.

Sincerely Lasse
 

Jay Hemdal

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There is a huge difference between occurrence of a possible pathogen and a disease caused by that microorganism. An active immune system does not hinder occurrence of a pathogen but it hinder (in most cases) a disease. However - the immune system can be lowered by stress and and other environmental issues. As an example - most fishes is infected by mycobacteria but very few (in a normal situation) have mycobacteriosis - with other words an active disease.

You are of cause familiar with this drawing


For me - the most important thing is to try too adapt the new fishes to my own aquariums microorganisms - for me - it is more likely that my aquarium have developed a system with possible pathogen microorganisms compared with the fishes just being catch out in the wild. Most people here concentrate to hinder a possible pathogen microorganism to enter into the aquarium - I´m more concerned of hinder already established microorganism to be pathogenic to the newcomers

The optimal way would be to have the newcomers isolated in a separate aquarium that´s like a normal aquarium. Observe and if a disease occur - move it to a treatment aquarium. 2 to 3 weeks before introduction to the DT - do smaller WC with help of the water from the DT on a regular basis (WC each 1 - 4 days. This of two reasons - 1) vaccination and 2) give the same smell.

For the moment I can´t do this way - therefore I introduce my newcomers to my refugium. There is no other established fish and plenty of pods. They will get the full dose of my microorganism directly but it is a calm place without any other fish that can bully them. Normally 95 - 99 % will make it through these 2 - 3 weeks I have them in the refugium. I have notice that when I introduce them to the DT - there is no of my old fish that even note they are coming - is just as usally. During this time - they have not be able to see each others - only been in the same water. I did (in the 70 - 80:ties) some experiments with very aggressive cichlids species and conclude that the most possible factor that could be involved in less bullying of newcomers was that the smell was the same. With these species - we always had them in a seperate tank for 2 - 3 weeks and did WC each 3 -4 day with help of the supposed DT:s water. The result was the same - lesser aggressive patterns regardless if they could see each other during the QT or not.

Sincerely Lasse
Yes, I use that diagram in my book. The propagule pressure I'm describing is where H and P overlap in the absence of E (above D). This is where fish develop a disease purely from exposure to the disease propagules themselves. This Venn diagram does have a defect that I cannot reconcile - what is the significance of where P and E overlap by themselves? I can see no logical case for that.

Jay
 
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