Frozen vs. Pellet Foods

[keagan]

I would simply abstain from making any assumptions at all about fish immune systems. Did you know that if you look at a SubSaharan African child's white blood cell composition and "active state", you'd be astounded at how different it looks compared to a US child's (edit: let's add child under heavy exposure to diverse pathogens such a malaria, enteric viruses/bacteria and respiratory pathogens)--and this is within the same species. Why should we assume that within the expansive diversity of fish species that they are all immunologically like salmon? What do we know about a flasher wrasse's antibodies? How about their T cells? For that matter, do wrasses have allergies? Here is what we *should* know, though:

Bacteria do not equal immunity. Bacteria do not give you or a fish immunity. This is a false statement. A fish has an immune system that *might* generate immunity based on what the fish is exposed to or what it is able to naturally defend against. Bacteria simply exist. It is true that gut bacteria can cause an organism's immune system to react one way or another, for example increasing or decreasing inflammation. Also true that "good" bacteria can outcompete "bad" bacteria for living space inside of the gut (or mouth or nose or skin for that matter). That is not immunity, though. And there is no reason why a gut bacteria should stimulate a fish's immune response to a parasite like Ich. If there is, I'd love to know about it.

The salmon are being used as a model organism to see if probiotics are useful in aquaculture. Unfortunately as far as academic research goes we need to look to commercial aquaculture because that research has funding that the aquarium industry will ever have. The same as testing on mice for drugs in humans they are using salmon as a model organism for fish in commercial aquaculture. So if they show that the lactobacillus that colonized the digestive tract of salmon were a positive (further research) they will demonstrate how probiotics can be viable for use on fish. This doesn't mean the same probiotics can be used in all fish or that all fish would benefit from probiotic use. You have to prove the general concept before getting too specific. In humans gut bacteria interact directly with immune cells helping boost immunity. I pointed out that part hasn't been demonstrated in fish, yet.

I think you need to separate the two statement I made the first was on immunity. It's readily apparently that there is very little active immunity to ectoparasites in most marine fish species we keep. There's innate immunity that varies a lot from species to species but the parasite load is high in almost all marine fish collected for aquaria so it's easy to see that active immunity (aquired immunity) to ectoparasites doesn't apply to us aquarists much. Animals across the board do need exposure to pathogenic bacteria to gain active immunity to bacteria virus etc unless you count in artificial methods which don't apply in our fish. However my statement on immunity was not referring to bacteria.

I wouldn't state there's no active immunity to ectoparasites but it doesn't apply to us much with already weak (at introduction) inhabitants. Innate does.
"Fish immunity and parasite infections: from innate immunity to immunoprophylactic prospects - PubMed" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18783835/

My statement on flukes is specific to ectoparasites they have a much higher chance of finding a host in a small space, they have less predators, and said fish are immunocompromised when received and can decline from losing blood while already experiencing a load of other stressors. So a parasite that wouldn't cause as much issues in the wild would be much more detrimental in a closed system with a (much) smaller water volume.

I think after separating my statement you can see we agree on some points.

 

[keagan]

Food must be a factor in certain cases with certain fish . I fed out of date flake food once the same food I have used for years . It killed one in 1-2 days . The others survived

My guess would be a lot of important vitamins are lost and a lot of valuable lipids are not as bioavailable in dry food (especially old dry food) and that's why we see fresh and frozen food working better for long term fish health. But thats just my opinion with no scientific backing, no proof.

 

[JoJosReef]

perhaps ich is like a virus . there is no vaccine / cure it runs its course . I had a cichlid that fought it off in less than a week that was before I was on this Forum , and did not know what it was .

Ich is a parasite, which is enormously more complex than a virus. In theory you could develop a vaccine for marine ich and give it to fish, but I'm not sure who would fund it :-)

What's entirely possible and even likely is that fish do develop immunity to Ich (those that don't? they die), but that it is not a "sterilizing" immunity. That means the parasite can continue to live in/on the fish even though the fish has no symptoms. That also means that the parasite is free to infect other fish that may or may not have immunity. This is the value of quarantine, because removal of the parasite means no other fish can get infected. Side-note: I've seen many occasions where people on this forum state that "every fish has ich... my fish got ich because it was stressed...". That is false. Certain stressors could make a fish that is typically asymptomatic become symptomatic. But it is false to say that all fish have ich. If you remove ich through treatment or other quarantine methods, then the parasite no longer exists in the fish, and if it does not exist in the tank, then the fish cannot spontaneously become infected with ich. There exists the possibility that ich parasites could go into a "dormant" state in some part of its life cycle and then "reawaken", but I don't know if that is real or not. What we do know from human parasites is that yes, you can completely clear an individual of the parasites and there will be no more of them--the exception, like I mentioned, are species like the malaria parasite Plasmodium vivax, where some parasites go dormant in the liver and the usual drug coctail doesn't hit them. Certainly not all parasites are capable of this. Ich doing this would be news to me. So, I still say that treating/quarantining, if done correctly, removes the risk almost entirely.

 

[JoJosReef]

The salmon are being used as a model organism to see if probiotics are useful in aquaculture. Unfortunately as far as academic research goes we need to look to commercial aquaculture because that research has funding that the aquarium industry will ever have. The same as testing on mice for drugs in humans they are using salmon as a model organism for fish in commercial aquaculture. So if they show that the lactobacillus that colonized the digestive tract of salmon were a positive (further research) they will demonstrate how probiotics can be viable for use on fish. This doesn't mean the same probiotics can be used in all fish or that all fish would benefit from probiotic use. You have to prove the general concept before getting too specific. In humans gut bacteria interact directly with immune cells helping boost immunity. I pointed out that part hasn't been demonstrated in fish, yet.

I think you need to separate the two statement I made the first was on immunity. It's readily apparently that there is very little active immunity to ectoparasites in most marine fish species we keep. There's innate immunity that varies a lot from species to species but the parasite load is high in almost all marine fish collected for aquaria so it's easy to see that active immunity (aquired immunity) to ectoparasites doesn't apply to us aquarists much. Animals across the board do need exposure to pathogenic bacteria to gain active immunity to bacteria virus etc unless you count in artificial methods which don't apply in our fish. However my statement on immunity was not referring to bacteria.

I wouldn't state there's no active immunity to ectoparasites but it doesn't apply to us much with already weak (at introduction) inhabitants. Innate does.
"Fish immunity and parasite infections: from innate immunity to immunoprophylactic prospects - PubMed" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18783835/

My statement on flukes is specific to ectoparasites they have a much higher chance of finding a host in a small space, they have less predators, and said fish are immunocompromised when received and can decline from losing blood while already experiencing a load of other stressors. So a parasite that wouldn't cause as much issues in the wild would be much more detrimental in a closed system with a (much) smaller water volume.

I think after separating my statement you can see we agree on some points.

I should have prefaced that I have no disagreements with what you said, except perhaps this one: "However wild fish do survive most of their natural lives with these big parasite loads.", in that, I would like to know how sure we are about fish survival in the wild. We can collect fish and see if they have parasites and their parasite load, but how are we to know what the mortality rate is in the wild? Perhaps 10% of fish succumb to ich and then become food for everything else in the food chain. Perhaps 20%? 1%? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[keagan]

I should have prefaced that I have no disagreements with what you said, except perhaps this one: "However wild fish do survive most of their natural lives with these big parasite loads.", in that, I would like to know how sure we are about fish survival in the wild. We can collect fish and see if they have parasites and their parasite load, but how are we to know what the mortality rate is in the wild? Perhaps 10% of fish succumb to ich and then become food for everything else in the food chain. Perhaps 20%? 1%? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You're right about that, thanks. I'll edit that, what I should've said is most adult fish of the species we collect have a high parasite load and left it at that. I'm drawing a conclusion without evidence in that sentence that's never good.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You constantly have a problem with my method without offering a single method of your own.
What is your method?

You misunderstand the difference between

A. Having a problem with your method (I'm not sure I ever said I have a problem with it, though I may have said something about some part of it),

and

B. The way you justify the various parts of it.

It is (B) that I have the problem with. If you said this about your method, then I would not have a problem with it:

"I have a method with lots of different aspects. It works super well for me, and I have not had a visibly sick fish in decades. I am not sure what aspects of my method are important, but I do know overall that the full method works".

That, IMO, is the limit of what you can say from your single experience. It is a good result and you should be rightfully proud of the success. That does not, however, allow for further conclusions about various aspects of it.


If you have missed my discussions of what I presently do with fish, here's a summary. I'm not claiming what I do is proven better than any other method, including the one you use. But it is also not proven to be worse.

1A. In my current tank, I use only quarantined fish. I get them from Dr Reef. I let him decide what treatments are appropriate for what species before sending them out. I do not claim to have any expertise in treating potentially diseased fish. The idea is to drop the disease vector load entering the system as low as possible. I do not claim, or have any way to know, if the fish in my current tank have any disease vectors (parasites) at levels they naturally keep in check. None have shown any apparent disease.

1B. In my old tank, I used a mix of quarantined and nonquarantined fish from several sources, mostly Live aquaria and the LFS. In 20 years none showed any disease, except after a tank crash (power failure while on vacation), one or two showed some ich spots when I returned. They spontaneously recovered, but it showed me that the parasite was present in the tank for likely much of the time, and the fish naturally kept it under control.

2. I try to provide a stress free environment with many hiding places. Part of that means not getting aggressive fish that are constantly fighting or challenging each other. Another part means reasonable water quality (temp, salinity, etc.) that is not constantly changing, and decent O2 levels from skimming and large reverse light cycle refugia.

3. I try to provide a natural feeding schedule, with current feedings at least 10 times a day. While some fish may do fine eating only once a day. I think many fish naturally eat small amounts constantly and benefit from such spread out feeding.

4. I try to provide appropriate and varied diets. That includes dried and fresh live macroalgae, dried foods such as Prime Reef flakes and TDO chromoboost pellets, frozen foods such as capelin eggs and mysis, and much less often, fresh or frozen shrimp or clam.

5. I also dose live phytoplankton nightly to boost the pod population. These pods are eaten by many of the fish (I see the chromis bite at the glass to get them sometimes), but most importantly, the mandarins. I added pods a couple of times at the start of my tank, but not ongoing since they thrive in the system, and the mandarins are clearly getting enough as they have grown a lot.

There may be other aspects that I am forgetting , but this seems to cover most of fish care. i do not presently have a plan to add any more fish out of concern for any possible upsetting of what seems a good situation for all of them at the moment.

 

[Freenow54]

I should have prefaced that I have no disagreements with what you said, except perhaps this one: "However wild fish do survive most of their natural lives with these big parasite loads.", in that, I would like to know how sure we are about fish survival in the wild. We can collect fish and see if they have parasites and their parasite load, but how are we to know what the mortality rate is in the wild? Perhaps 10% of fish succumb to ich and then become food for everything else in the food chain. Perhaps 20%? 1%? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What is in Salmon that is bad for Humans ? Also I thought they were very susceptible to " fleas " or mites in farms because of their close proximity

 

[Freenow54]

Frozen vs. Pellet Foods, which do you prefer, do you feed both or prefer to feed one exclusively? I do a mix of both and throw flakes and nori in as well. I think having a well balanced diet helps your fish out long term and keeps their colors nice and vibrant.

my fish ignore pellets end up making a mess

 

[Paul B]

A. Having a problem with your method (I'm not sure I ever said I have a problem with it, though I may have said something about some part of it),

No, you have said multiple times that How I justify it is questionable or I am not explaining it correctly or it can't be scientifically explained, or something similar to that. I never said it was a perfect system, just that it is my system.

That, IMO, is the limit of what you can say from your single experience.

I have helped start and keep up 3 salt water stores when the hobby started no one knew anything about salt water fish except me, around New York anyway. I even collected water for their tanks.

I keep my tank similar to you except I would not add a quarantined fish as I explained and I never bought from Dr Reef or heard of him.

I also never bought a pod because my tank produces enough of them to keep my mandarins and all the dragonettes and pipefish spawning and I don't use any dry foods although I don't think it will kill your fish. I just feel fresh foods are better.

I don't feed much of a varied diet except clams, mussels, worms and frozen LRS foods. No nori because my tangs live fine with out it for about 10 years.
,

 

[keagan]

No, you have said multiple times that How I justify it is questionable or I am not explaining it correctly or it can't be scientifically explained, or something similar to that. I never said it was a perfect system, just that it is my system.


I have helped start and keep up 3 salt water stores when the hobby started no one knew anything about salt water fish except me, around New York anyway. I even collected water for their tanks.

I keep my tank similar to you except I would not add a quarantined fish as I explained and I never bought from Dr Reef or heard of him.

I also never bought a pod because my tank produces enough of them to keep my mandarins and all the dragonettes and pipefish spawning and I don't use any dry foods although I don't think it will kill your fish. I just feel fresh foods are better.

I don't feed much of a varied diet except clams, mussels, worms and frozen LRS foods. No nori because my tangs live fine with out it for about 10 years.
,

Ever harvest fresh seaweed and feed it to your tangs? If so what was the most popular dulse, sea lettuce, etc? I bet the mud you harvest is more loaded with copepods than any bottle someone could buy .

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

No, you have said multiple times that How I justify it is questionable or I am not explaining it correctly or it can't be scientifically explained, or something similar to that. I never said it was a perfect system, just that it is my system.


I have helped start and keep up 3 salt water stores when the hobby started no one knew anything about salt water fish except me, around New York anyway. I even collected water for their tanks.

I keep my tank similar to you except I would not add a quarantined fish as I explained and I never bought from Dr Reef or heard of him.

I also never bought a pod because my tank produces enough of them to keep my mandarins and all the dragonettes and pipefish spawning and I don't use any dry foods although I don't think it will kill your fish. I just feel fresh foods are better.

I don't feed much of a varied diet except clams, mussels, worms and frozen LRS foods. No nori because my tangs live fine with out it for about 10 years.
,

Perhaps there was miscommunication or misunderstanding. Without an exact discussion to refer to, I’ll address it in general.

Yes, I contend that you justify your individual actions inappropriately. That is what I said above and have said many times.

Your tank by itself is not a justification for any individual action you take with it. No more so than someone smoking while they drive and never having an accident suggesting smoking in the car is an important part of the safe driving plan.

Your actions (say, feeding guts or not doing qt) may NOT be important to your success, and from your own tank or any tank doing your entire plan, one cannot say whether it is important or not. Or they may be important. No way to know from looking at an aggregate of actions without looking at them individually.

The papers you cite are fine supporting arguments for why you do what you do, but none are on point enough to prove that your individual actions are critical to success.

 

[MizzouMark]

I feed frozen when I'm home (LRS Fish/Reef Frenzy + PE Mysis Shrimp) and Avast Marine Reef Jerky when I'm away. They eat both quite well. I also put in clips of nori if I'm home to keep the Tangs happy. I did have to cut back on the amount of frozen food I was originally feeding. They were getting pretty plump so now I make sure everything is consumed within two minutes.

 

[reefmaster70]

I actually mix up a slurry in reef tank water, which includes frozen mermaids delight, frozen brine, reef roids and a couple pinches of Vitalis marine pellets. Stir it up good and let sit.about 10 minutes then pour into the tank. Plus I do a daily clip of seaweed as well.

 

[Paul B]

Ever harvest fresh seaweed and feed it to your tangs?

I don't harvest it on purpose but the amphipods I collect are full of the stuff so I inadvertently added it and my tangs do eat it.

It is this stuff.

I am sure the mud I add is loaded with copepods but this was the first time I collected in almost 3 years because the water was toxic for a while.

This place is also covered in sea lettuce but I haven't found anything that eats it. It is like 2' deep in places.

Yes, I contend that you justify your individual actions inappropriately. That is what I said above and have said many times.

OK I don't have an issue with that. That is your opinion and many people have a different opinion of how I justify my actions.

Your actions (say, feeding guts or not doing qt) may NOT be important to your success, and from your own tank or any tank doing your entire plan, one cannot say whether it is important or not. Or they may be important. No way to know from looking at an aggregate of actions without looking at them individually.

This is true, but it is also true that what I do can't be all that bad if it is bad at all. I do study immunity because due to my wife's illness we get invited to many talks by neurologists and we do sometimes discuss immunity because the talks are not always about MS.

The papers you cite are fine supporting arguments for why you do what you do, but none are on point enough to prove that your individual actions are critical to success.

True, but also none of them disprove if my actions are critical. As I said I got my knowledge about fish by spending quite a bit of time with them over almost 50 years that I have been diving and I know when a fish eats another fish, unless it swallows the fish whole, it first rips out the guts and eats that even many times leaving the rest of the fish for the crabs.

The guts is where the gut bacteria is along with the oil and most of the vitamins and minerals and in the guts and stomach is the remains of the preys last meal.

I tell people all the time that shrimp tails, fish fillets, squid and octopus tentacles are not the best foods because that is only the muscles of the creature and not the guts. That is what we eat.

I also try to show that almost all fish need tight hiding places
where another fish like a moray eel can't get in to eat it. The fish needs to feel safe and having one large cave in the middle of a tank won't do it. That is also a big part of keeping a fish immune because that causes stress and stress builds up cortisol which among other things shortens the life of the fish.

I linked articles about that and didn't make it up myself as I am an electrician and not a fish biologist. I can't prove it or disprove it but it makes sense.

I cringe when I see a tank with stark white rocks with one or two large caves and the owner is feeding nothing but flakes and pellets. To me, that tank is looking for problems and diseases and I tend to stay off those threads because it will just cause arguments. I know better but I am old and I hope the owner will learn before he kills too many fish.

 

[richserpe]

I give everyone a little something special. Frozen mysis, Reef Frenzy (true to its name), Benepets Reef and LPS pellets, Red Sea AB+ for the corals, amphipods and copepods from Dinkins Aquatics for the Mandarins. Also have to target feed the Dendros and Scolys. The clean up crew takes care of what little leftovers there are. Everyone seems fat and happy so I’ll stick with what works.

 

[richserpe]

Check out some of my residents

 

[billrob71]

I feed frozen , pellets , flakes and nori strips

When my nitrates and phosphates fall , skimmers off and feeding flakes for a couple days to help keep them up .

 

[jonnywink]

I feed frozen in the morning and usually flakes in the evening. My fish just ignore pellets, so I have several different brands on the shelf that I periodically try again with little luck. I also have two nori stations for them.

 

[FrugalReeferJon]

I feed my fish 3 times a day every day, flakes, pellets, and mysis. Despite this I still have to dose nitrates or else they slowly start to bottom out.

 

[Mongo1.0]

All my fish love both.