GHL warranty

[Wug]

Hi everyone, just going to post this as a warning to others.
Anybody that has read my thread on my profilux 4e set will know i had a major problem with the 6e powerbar which ended up being the ribbon connector loose due to handling issues on delivery.
When I was hunting through various threads for ideas,( ended up doing ticket to ghl and given instructions to take apart ) I was a bit alarmed at the amount of times I was seeing warnings for different bits of ghl kit that the warranty could become invalid .
The reason I bring this up is ,
guess what ?
That same powerbar failed well within the warranty period. Not the end of the world as I had purchased 2 other powerbar 6e as well as loads of other ghl kit. Lots of money spent to make reefing life as easy as possible.
Contacted ghl for details on warranty returns and £36 for delivery to Germany later i sat back awaiting the response, but with a niggle in the back of my mind about all the ghl warnings of warranty invalidation. But kept telling myself that as it was the one that I had had a nightmare with it must be something to do with damage received when it was originally delivered to me.
Bet you can't guess the response from ghl !
Yep you guessed it....this is not a warranty claim due to overload or over voltage ! I will attach the email.
Well all of my electrical devices including powerbar are surge protected.
The other 2 powerbars are fine, never had any problems with them.
The other thing that comes to mind is these are supposed to be smart powerbars...surely that should include cicuit protection !!!!!
Well my experience with ghl products has not been good, coupled with an app that glitches, loaded and reloaded many times on my note9, and an operating system that is not always intuitive to use.
I do wish I had purchased a different system, but as I have spent so much money,including paying for an ion director that I am still waiting for, I will stay with it until other items fail but will NOT purchase anymore GHL products other than stuff I need to maintain equipment as I have no faith left in the company.
Shame it should be the best on the market with a warranty to match.

 

[Andy-D]

Hello

I run GHL equipment and have never had a problem. It would be nice to understand how the BAR failed, what failed? logic, or one socket, or completely dead etc and marks of over load.

I have repaired an old power bar that had the TRIACS fail due to running an overly inductive load and the GHL support was very good, even though the bar was no longer under warranty and the failure was due to the load not being suitable for the dimming socket, so not a GHL failure, user failure:-( .

As to smart, based on the 5E bars these are full microprocessor controlled units with their own ARM processors if i recall so yes they are smart. The mains switching will of course be driven via relays, and these will have specific load, and inrush current ratings, and yes its is possible due to a specific load to over step these rating , the relay may not fail first go but over a long period. Hence it would be good to understand what failed and what was been driven and the switching cycle.

Adding additional protect to the power bar may help but it would depend on the failure, and also increase the unit cost, so maybe not ideal for everyone but good for others.

Not sure other options guarantee a trouble free solution, a search of the forum will most likely pull up similar threads for most manufacturers.

as to surge protection, the life of such protection is dependent on the type and how may surges and the joules per surge the device has seen, in short they don't last for ever.

 

[Wug]

Hello there,
So pleased to hear yours has been trouble free, i can only go on my own experience which has not been great right from the start. If you look at my previous threads you will find some very kind people on here that tried to help me.
As for full details of failure ghl only said evidence of overcharge or over voltage and i will have to pay for postage to get it back....i guess another £36 !
As for surge protection , as I was spending so much money on this equipement I decided to replace the sockets for mk surge protected sockets so those are well under a year old as well.
And yes the staff are helpful, however my apprehension about the warranty was based on the amount of times i have read replies on various subjects where it ends with a warning that warranty could be invalidated,and my apprehension either rightl or wrong proved to be the case ....ie not a warranty claim on a product I had had problems with right from the start and no problems on the other 2 powerbars

 

[robbyg]

Sounds like your handling the situation in a level headed way. I assume that you never kept a copy of the Ticket that told you to take apart the 6e and push back on the ribbon? That would have probably made it case closed and a full fix under warranty. I know I often throw away or disregard these thing so I understand if you never kept a copy.

As for Warranty. Of all the controller companies on the market today, GHL is the only one with a two year warranty. everyone else only offers one year.

 

[Wug]

Yes I kept it, when they instructed me to open the unit I asked about the warranty issue as the warranty tab would be damaged and got NO reply so assumed it would not be a problem. As for 2 year, the powerbar was under a year.
In my opion,for what it is worth, when you pay so much money for an item it should last for much longer doing the job it was designed to do, and if it fails due to lack of design protection, or damage caused by delivery handling, which I suspect is the root cause of the problem and was destined to fail sooner or later then it should be covered by the warranty.

 

[ReefPig]

So the product broke due to power overload.
”I have no faith in the company”, so you’d like them to simply take it on the chin every time someone like you breaks some equipment?
sounds like a way to go out of business.

Lets say you buy a MacBook, and spill coke all over the keyboard and it breaks, would you expect Apple to replace for free, or charge you to fix it?

Your expectations vs reality are completely skewed. I’ve ran multiple ProfiLux and associated equipment since the P2, I have had a couple of items break, under warranty, and they fixed them free of charge, as it was a defect, I didn’t break it. For example, my KHD, when it first arrived, the small pump inside the unit didn’t work and as such the measurement didn’t work, I sent it back, they paid for the shipping and it was returned back to me the week after fixed.

You think you’d get better service from Neptune?
Have you seen the amount of complaints their customer service gets?

Some people really need to get a reality check.

 

[Wug]

So the product broke due to power overload.
”I have no faith in the company”, so you’d like them to simply take it on the chin every time someone like you breaks some equipment?
sounds like a way to go out of business.

Lets say you buy a MacBook, and spill coke all over the keyboard and it breaks, would you expect Apple to replace for free, or charge you to fix it?

Your expectations vs reality are completely skewed. I’ve ran multiple ProfiLux and associated equipment since the P2, I have had a couple of items break, under warranty, and they fixed them free of charge, as it was a defect, I didn’t break it. For example, my KHD, when it first arrived, the small pump inside the unit didn’t work and as such the measurement didn’t work, I sent it back, they paid for the shipping and it was returned back to me the week after fixed.

You think you’d get better service from Neptune?
Have you seen the amount of complaints their customer service gets?

Some people really need to get a reality check.

 

[Wug]

Oh dear, what a stupid analogy. Of course if I had damaged the item I would not expect a warranty claim, and I am not the sort of person to try it on...however if you read all the threads you will see it had been damaged from delivery, even the p4 had to be opened to put the display straight !
If you had bothered to read all the threads you will also see that I replaced my sockets with surge protection units because of the investment I had made in the system.
The powerbar 6e came with the full kit, i also purchased 2 extra 6e powerbars and have had NO problem with them plugged into the same surge protected sockets and are now carrying a little bit more load as going down to 2 powerbars, no water has spilt on anything and all equipment that was plugged into it is working fine, but very strange that the powerbar that was faulty due to being miss handled on delivery should be the one that failed.
I am pleased that you have had a good experience with ghl, however it does not mean that everyone will.
And it would be nice if when putting your opinion, and we are all entitled to one, you didn't make things personal.

 

[ReefPig]

Oh dear, what a stupid analogy. Of course if I had damaged the item I would not expect a warranty claim, and I am not the sort of person to try it on...however if you read all the threads you will see it had been damaged from delivery, even the p4 had to be opened to put the display straight !
If you had bothered to read all the threads you will also see that I replaced my sockets with surge protection units because of the investment I had made in the system.
The powerbar 6e came with the full kit, i also purchased 2 extra 6e powerbars and have had NO problem with them plugged into the same surge protected sockets and are now carrying a little bit more load as going down to 2 powerbars, no water has spilt on anything and all equipment that was plugged into it is working fine, but very strange that the powerbar that was faulty due to being miss handled on delivery should be the one that failed.
I am pleased that you have had a good experience with ghl, however it does not mean that everyone will.
And it would be nice if when putting your opinion, and we are all entitled to one, you didn't make things personal.

If you had cared to have read my response, you would have seen that there is nothing personal in it.

I did read your thread, all of it.

You have a product under warrenty that has broken, GHL has confirmed that it is due to overvolting.
A bad delivery doesn't cause overvolting, as an engineer, I can confirm that dropping something will not cause more volts to travel through it, it’s not a transformer. If that had been the case and it was so badly damaged, it likely never would have worked to begin with.

It's more likely your surge protector for that socket didn't work during a surge.

If you buy something electrical, and it's clearly damaged on delivery, always record it on the delivery and ask to do a replacement.
As for the screen needing to be reseated, it should have been returned.

To my point, all of this is on you, not GHL, why should they pick up the bill?

 

[Matt Peacock]

Regardless of how any one person views the same set of facts, responding in condescending and antagonistic terms is not helpful. Nor is it credible to then try and claim that there is "nothing personal" in the content of a response which, as anyone can read, contains several charged criticisms unrelated to the alleged issue with the product and are instead directed singularly at the OP as an individual.

@Wug, while things do fail in unfair ways, as I read your post I did feel that this is unusual. Thinking firstly about UK wiring and secondly that you allege that this same Plugbar previously had issues from delivery and thirdly that the other two Powerbars have in contrast been faultless and fourthly that you apparently sought to protect the Powerbar from (possibly) the same fault it ultimately succumbed to. I do therefore understand why you would ask for input on this.

With respect, it's a little difficult for anyone to provide targeted help because you have not described the issue in terms more detailed than "failure". Can you provide details. Did you cut power to the Powerbar and then restore it (i.e. everything turned back on at once)? Has the Powerbar failed as a whole or just one outlet, and if the latter what was plugged into that outlet? Etc etc. Your email is truncated which makes it looks like GHL attached only a quote. When I have asked for service assistance previously they have provided me with photos showing what they found. Did they not attach any photos? I do not know the answer but in light of the lack of details as to the fault I have provided below a collection of thoughts on the overall explanation you have been given which might help you take it forward constructively. I have tried to build upon the helpful suggestions already provided by @Andy-D and @robbyg.

Overcurrent

Generalised overcurrent - This seems unlikely. The Powerbar 6E is advertised as being able to handle 15 amps per outlet, but you have already confirmed it was plugged into a 13 amp socket outlet. It seems to me that for it to be a generalised overcurrent failure you would need i) the 13 A plug top fuse to have failed to activate (which is actually not uncommon; higher-rated ones are pretty poor at activating, they often simply overheat and melt the plug and it's a short-circuit, or even fire, which ends the fault rather than the fuse) ii) the Powerbar's internal fuse to have failed to activate iii) possibly, your overcurrent protection device protecting the house circuit itself to have failed to activate. That would depend on its rating and the other loads present across it at the same time. For example, if you are running it on an otherwise unoccupied 32 amp ring main then I wouldn't expect your consumer unit to necessarily trip even if the Powerbar was drawing more than it is designed to handle. All of this aside, for a generalised overcurrent failure you would likely have separately noticed total equipment failure like an AC pump melting in your sump.

Localised overcurrent - This seems more likely. I agree with the questions @Andy-D has asked of you in order to understand whether it's actually just one relay which has popped / melted on / etc. If you had multiple devices plugged into an extension lead from one outlet then you probably had this coming. It also strikes me as possible that you could blow other non-relay components if you had a high inrush current from e.g. metal halides. Although of course you cannot in my mind be criticised for connecting aquarium lights to an aquarium Powerbar.

Overvoltage

This seems unlikely. While there can be 1000s of lighting strikes a day in the UK it's pretty rare to see realistic claims that the resulting surges caused sudden appliance failure (although it is by nature often a silent killer). It would be interesting to know if you live in a city or rural. If the latter, I can believe it a little more. It seems unlucky, but certainly not impossible, to me that a surge would destroy only one item in your house let alone one designed for power distribution. It seems very unlucky almost to the point of unbelievability that that surge did so having first defeated a device whose sole purpose is to absorb surges in order to protect the end appliance. MK are a well-trusted brand; several electricians I know install them as standard (well, they are now moving to Click but you get the point).

Can you check the LED on the surge socket (or its cartridge) itself - has it lit up stating that it needs replacement? Can you confirm they are actually surge, and not RCD, sockets? You can find records of daily lightning strikes freely online. You'll need to enter your postcode details to get anything useful from it. As to network surges, I suspect you would have to ask your DNO and they might be coy about it because they fear your reply email will be a claim for a broken 85" TV. However, if you establish that there were notable surges that day, or conversely there were not, that could be useful for you in the event you are investigating a generalised failure.

Next steps

I have only had to deal with GHL a few times and my experience has been good. I have on rare occasion found that their initial response can be factually incorrect. However, when the facts were made clear they looked at the issue afresh, and fairly, and came through with the right solution (and on one occasion came through with an excellent one). I mirror the experiences above in that I've never had a GHL Powerbar fail. I have two Powerbar 5.1s.

In future

I understand why you did it, but I would simply reject faulty items outright rather than engage with the manufacturer on repair. You rarely find your efforts reciprocated. You can also lose some of your rights. I have had my fingers burnt on this before and now just take a robust line. To avoid disputes later down the line. Also it's not clear if you bought from GHL directly or a retailer here. I would if I were you tend towards the latter because you will be clearer on your local rights and in the event of a breakdown in relations your options for a formal resolution are more easily accessed.

 

[Wug]

Regardless of how any one person views the same set of facts, responding in condescending and antagonistic terms is not helpful. Nor is it credible to then try and claim that there is "nothing personal" in the content of a response which, as anyone can read, contains several charged criticisms unrelated to the alleged issue with the product and are instead directed singularly at the OP as an individual.

@Wug, while things do fail in unfair ways, as I read your post I did feel that this is unusual. Thinking firstly about UK wiring and secondly that you allege that this same Plugbar previously had issues from delivery and thirdly that the other two Powerbars have in contrast been faultless and fourthly that you apparently sought to protect the Powerbar from (possibly) the same fault it ultimately succumbed to. I do therefore understand why you would ask for input on this.

With respect, it's a little difficult for anyone to provide targeted help because you have not described the issue in terms more detailed than "failure". Can you provide details. Did you cut power to the Powerbar and then restore it (i.e. everything turned back on at once)? Has the Powerbar failed as a whole or just one outlet, and if the latter what was plugged into that outlet? Etc etc. Your email is truncated which makes it looks like GHL attached only a quote. When I have asked for service assistance previously they have provided me with photos showing what they found. Did they not attach any photos? I do not know the answer but in light of the lack of details as to the fault I have provided below a collection of thoughts on the overall explanation you have been given which might help you take it forward constructively. I have tried to build upon the helpful suggestions already provided by @Andy-D and @robbyg.

Overcurrent

Generalised overcurrent - This seems unlikely. The Powerbar 6E is advertised as being able to handle 15 amps per outlet, but you have already confirmed it was plugged into a 13 amp socket outlet. It seems to me that for it to be a generalised overcurrent failure you would need i) the 13 A plug top fuse to have failed to activate (which is actually not uncommon; higher-rated ones are pretty poor at activating, they often simply overheat and melt the plug and it's a short-circuit, or even fire, which ends the fault rather than the fuse) ii) the Powerbar's internal fuse to have failed to activate iii) possibly, your overcurrent protection device protecting the house circuit itself to have failed to activate. That would depend on its rating and the other loads present across it at the same time. For example, if you are running it on an otherwise unoccupied 32 amp ring main then I wouldn't expect your consumer unit to necessarily trip even if the Powerbar was drawing more than it is designed to handle. All of this aside, for a generalised overcurrent failure you would likely have separately noticed total equipment failure like an AC pump melting in your sump.

Localised overcurrent - This seems more likely. I agree with the questions @Andy-D has asked of you in order to understand whether it's actually just one relay which has popped / melted on / etc. If you had multiple devices plugged into an extension lead from one outlet then you probably had this coming. It also strikes me as possible that you could blow other non-relay components if you had a high inrush current from e.g. metal halides. Although of course you cannot in my mind be criticised for connecting aquarium lights to an aquarium Powerbar.

Overvoltage

This seems unlikely. While there can be 1000s of lighting strikes a day in the UK it's pretty rare to see realistic claims that the resulting surges caused sudden appliance failure (although it is by nature often a silent killer). It would be interesting to know if you live in a city or rural. If the latter, I can believe it a little more. It seems unlucky, but certainly not impossible, to me that a surge would destroy only one item in your house let alone one designed for power distribution. It seems very unlucky almost to the point of unbelievability that that surge did so having first defeated a device whose sole purpose is to absorb surges in order to protect the end appliance. MK are a well-trusted brand; several electricians I know install them as standard (well, they are now moving to Click but you get the point).

Can you check the LED on the surge socket (or its cartridge) itself - has it lit up stating that it needs replacement? Can you confirm they are actually surge, and not RCD, sockets? You can find records of daily lightning strikes freely online. There can be thousands a day so you'll need to enter your postcode details to get anything useful from it. As to network surges, I suspect you would have to ask your DNO and they might be coy about it because they fear the reply email will be a claim for a broken 85" TV. However, if you establish that either there were notable surges that day, or conversely there were not, that could be useful for you in the event you are investigating a generalised failure.

Next steps

I have only had to deal with GHL a few times and my experience has been good. I have on rare occasion found that their initial response can be factually incorrect. However, when the facts were made clear they looked at the issue afresh, and fairly, and came through with the right solution (and on one occasion came through with an excellent one). I mirror the experiences above in that I've never had a GHL Powerbar fail. I have two Powerbar 5.1s.

In future

I understand why you did it, but I would simply reject faulty items outright rather than engage with the manufacturer on repair. You rarely find your efforts reciprocated. You can also lose some of your rights. I have had my fingers burnt on this before and now just take a robust line. To avoid disputes later down the line. Also it's not clear if you bought from GHL directly or a retailer here. I would if I were you tend towards the latter because, having lived here, you will be clearer on your rights and in the event of a breakdown in relations your options for a more formalised remedy are more easily accessed (GHL insist on arbitration in Germany).

Thank you Matt,
I am pleased to say that ghl did apologise that they had not been clear enough, however they still say it is not a warranty. I have accepted that I will not get anywhere with them and the other 2 powerbars are still working well with everything that was in the one that went down.
I appreciate you and others have had good experience with ghl and there products. I just wish I had as well. I also accept that my first problems were likely to have been caused by poor handling by the parcel company.(p4 kit)
I purchased the p4 ultimate kit that had the problem power bar through a UK company who just refer you to ghl. I know my contract is with them and I could take legal action , however i can no longer be bothered after spending so much money on ghl products, which includes direct from ghl, 3 extra slave dosers, kh director,ion director (still waiting) extra ph prob, inline probe measurement cell, power head controller, extra ph card for p4 ,power failure cable, level sensors, cut out box a years worth of reference and kh fluids ghl mitras lighting and many other bits and pieces. I no longer have any faith so although I will not ditch what I have ,as things fail for whatever reason, I will replace with another manufacturer.
The experience I have had has not only put me off ghl ,and to be honest I can do without some of the comments i have received from listing my experience ,and that has caused me to loose a lot of interest in keeping a reef tank.
Most people on here are great, and like yourself try to be helpful, so I thank you and others like yourself, and wish you all well.
My passion has faded,I just hope I can find it again