Hanna Copper Checker Giving Wrong Numbers

[katrinatimm02]

So I’m experiencing ich for the first time. I’ve set up a quarantine tank (50 gallons) and started dosing copper safe on Thursday with a slow ramp up. I have a Hanna copper checker and I don’t think it’s giving correct numbers.

First time I dosed (18ml) checked about 2 mins after and it said 0.90, left it and checked the next evening and it said 0.71 I figured it had some time to mix in the tank and so it leveling out made sense. So I dosed another 18ml last night and now over 12 hours later my Hanna read 0.32 that’s absolutely impossible. There’s no way it has gone down significantly like that. I didn’t miss any of the powder and the water sample in the vial is significantly pinker than yesterday. So I tried to test the exact same vial two more times and it gave me another two completely different numbers (0.56 and 0.47) there’s no way there should be that significant of changes on the exact same vial with the exact same sample.

what the heck is going on, how am I supposed to do this properly if the only reader I’m supposed to use doesn’t work.

 

[exnisstech]

I'm going from memory so I maybe totally wrong. I feel like when I used copper safe I had to constantly add to keep copper at therapeutic levels. I switched to Copper power for that reason. Apologies if my memory is scrambled.

 

[katrinatimm02]

I'm going from memory so I maybe totally wrong. I feel like when I used copper safe I had to constantly add to keep copper at therapeutic levels. I switched to Copper power for that reason. Apologies if my memory is scrambled.

I can understand it dropping a little but that much doesn’t make any sense to me. Coppersafe claims it is a one time dose that lasts 30 days. You can’t convince me it’ll drop 55% in 24 hours. Not only that but I feel like humble fish would’ve said if that was their experience with using it.
As well, the colour in the vial doesn’t add up then. If it wasn’t lasting the colour wouldn’t be so pink compared to other days. Appreciate your input!

 

[katrinatimm02]

So I’m experiencing ich for the first time. I’ve set up a quarantine tank (50 gallons) and started dosing copper safe on Thursday with a slow ramp up. I have a Hanna copper checker and I don’t think it’s giving correct numbers.

First time I dosed (18ml) checked about 2 mins after and it said 0.90, left it and checked the next evening and it said 0.71 I figured it had some time to mix in the tank and so it leveling out made sense. So I dosed another 18ml last night and now over 12 hours later my Hanna read 0.32 that’s absolutely impossible. There’s no way it has gone down significantly like that. I didn’t miss any of the powder and the water sample in the vial is significantly pinker than yesterday. So I tried to test the exact same vial two more times and it gave me another two completely different numbers (0.56 and 0.47) there’s no way there should be that significant of changes on the exact same vial with the exact same sample.

what the heck is going on, how am I supposed to do this properly if the only reader I’m supposed to use doesn’t work.

Update to my own post.
I decided f this let’s open a brand new package of reagents that don’t expire till 2028 and do an entirely new test. This one now says 1.47 WOW. That sounds like the correct number to me. It is also purple instead of pink.

 

[exnisstech]

Not trying to convince you of anything. But as bad as my memory is I do know I switched to copper power because I had to add copper safe to the QT to keep the levels up and with copper power I only had to add it to water change water. Maybe something was weird in my system.

 

[exnisstech]

 

[katrinatimm02]

I’ll make sure to keep a close eye on it. Thanks for all your help! :D

 

[threebuoys]

A couple of suggestions,

Don't ramp up slowly, especially if the fish are showing symptoms. Add 50% initially, give it 3 or 4 hours to mix thoroughly, then calculate and add the dose needed to get to your target. Give it time to mix thoroughly before you test again. CopperPower or CopperSafe ares not effective until the concentration reaches the target (2.25 - 2.50). This approach is not detrimental to the fish.

Be certain you have nothing in the tank that may absorb copper. That could be rock or sand comprised of calcium or polyfiber. What filtration method/material are you using to control ammonia?

Be very careful when you rinse and dry the cuvettes. If you using pipettes, be sure they are cleaned before you put them into either the sample or the medication. I know, that sounds unlikely. Sadly, I've seen it happen. Especially if you are getting different results (more than 0.05 difference) when measured within minutes of each other.

 

[katrinatimm02]

A couple of suggestions,

Don't ramp up slowly, especially if the fish are showing symptoms. Add 50% initially, give it 3 or 4 hours to mix thoroughly, then calculate and add the dose needed to get to your target. Give it time to mix thoroughly before you test again. CopperPower or CopperSafe ares not effective until the concentration reaches the target (2.25 - 2.50). This approach is not detrimental to the fish.

Be certain you have nothing in the tank that may absorb copper. That could be rock or sand comprised of calcium or polyfiber. What filtration method/material are you using to control ammonia?

Be very careful when you rinse and dry the cuvettes. If you using pipettes, be sure they are cleaned before you put them into either the sample or the medication. I know, that sounds unlikely. Sadly, I've seen it happen. Especially if you are getting different results (more than 0.05 difference) when measured within minutes of each other.

Hi, thanks for your input. Coppersafe therapeutic level is 1.5-2.00 so I’ll be going to 2 max. The quarantine tank they are in was their established tank already. I removed everything out of it to make it a quarantine since I was upgrading to my 110 anyways. (Which is obviously now on hold) it now has some pvc pipes in it and my normal biomedia. I’ve been testing for ammonia and nitrates to ensure they are fine. I’ve already been ramping up slowly since Thursday so it’s a little late to “not” do that lol. I also have a wrasse and would prefer to not stress them out more by dosing large amounts quickly. The other tank has to be fallow for 72 days so I’m in no rush to get the 30 days over quickly. I will take my time and do this right. All fish are eating lots and seem relatively healthy otherwise. I went out and bought 50 new pipettes so that I can just use and toss after.

 

[threebuoys]

You might want to read the QT protocol we recommend for future reference. We've found that CopperSafe and CopperPower require a minimum concentration of 2.25 to be effective.

Not sure what your normal biomedia is, but some brands are calcium based. In those instances, the copper concentration will drop daily, depending on the amount of calcium present.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2024 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed, proactive quarantine process can effectively eliminate these...

www.reef2reef.com

The reason we recommend a quick ramp up is because more harm is done to the infected fish by the parasites while waiting for the concentration to become effective. If the ich infection is severe, or if the infection is velvet, the fish may die before you ever achieve an effective dose. Wrasses handle the 6 - 12 hour ramp up just fine. I've found the most important step for wrasse QT to minimize stress is to provide a bowl of non calcium based sand 1-2 inches deep for it to bury in. Once the wrasse gets comfortable with the surroundings, he'll spend more and more time out of the sand.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I found that copper power and coppersafe are virtually identical. In fact, I'm surprised that one of the companies hasn't sued the other (unless they are both using open source formulations).

"More dilute" is meaningless in this context - he makes it sound like coppersafe is weaker. Of course, since you are dosing to the same copper level, the actual concentration is of no importance, you just add more product. I did some quick math and it looks like the high dose for copper power is 1 oz per 6.6 gallons, while coppersafe is 1 oz per 24 gallons, so it is actually stronger.

 

[exnisstech]

I found that copper power and coppersafe are virtually identical. In fact, I'm surprised that one of the companies hasn't sued the other (unless they are both using open source formulations).

"More dilute" is meaningless in this context - he makes it sound like coppersafe is weaker. Of course, since you are dosing to the same copper level, the actual concentration is of no importance, you just add more product. I did some quick math and it looks like the high dose for copper power is 1 oz per 6.6 gallons, while coppersafe is 1 oz per 24 gallons, so it is actually stronger.

Maybe I'm confused Jay. Is there a copper treatment that requires maintenance doses? I remember switching to Copper power for that reason but I must have been using something else.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I’m experiencing ich for the first time. I’ve set up a quarantine tank (50 gallons) and started dosing copper safe on Thursday with a slow ramp up. I have a Hanna copper checker and I don’t think it’s giving correct numbers.

First time I dosed (18ml) checked about 2 mins after and it said 0.90, left it and checked the next evening and it said 0.71 I figured it had some time to mix in the tank and so it leveling out made sense. So I dosed another 18ml last night and now over 12 hours later my Hanna read 0.32 that’s absolutely impossible. There’s no way it has gone down significantly like that. I didn’t miss any of the powder and the water sample in the vial is significantly pinker than yesterday. So I tried to test the exact same vial two more times and it gave me another two completely different numbers (0.56 and 0.47) there’s no way there should be that significant of changes on the exact same vial with the exact same sample.

what the heck is going on, how am I supposed to do this properly if the only reader I’m supposed to use doesn’t work.

There are a variety of issues that you need to track. Your initial 18 ml dose should have resulted in a 0.64 ppm reading. You got a higher reading. I think you didn't let the tank mix long enough and you tested a "hot spot". I always wait a few hours before testing.

Then, there is what I call "the tyranny of numbers". Almost without exception, human beings strongly trust the number given them by devices to the level of precision indicated (2 decimals in this case). However, just because a device spits out a number with 2 decimal on the readout, it doesn't mean that some error crept in, either in the unit itself (+ or - 5% I think) or there was a measuring error (I find issues with getting all the powder out) or the machine has some defect.

I find that the first dose of coppersafe tends to react to carbonates in the water, and may drop, say 15% overnight. Subsequent doses seem to hold better.

My favorite way to test all this is to make up some seawater (like for a water change) and as accurately as possible (like using a pipette) add the exact amount of copper for that volume of water, aerate it well and test - you should get around 2.25 ppm. Then, to check your meter's operation, as well as your technique, run the test 2 more times and see how they line up (I know, it's expensive running these tests).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Maybe I'm confused Jay. Is there a copper treatment that requires maintenance doses? I remember switching to Copper power for that reason but I must have been using something else.

Ionic copper like Cupramine and the Brightwell product are less stable in seawater and require testing and partial re-dosing fairly often (for the Brightwell product, it can be as high as 2x a day).

Coppersafe and Copper Power are more stable. After an initial drop overnight (probably due to reaction with carbonates in the water) the copper level is fairly stable for the next month or so. I usually test weekly just to keep an eye on things.

 

[exnisstech]

Ionic copper like Cupramine and the Brightwell product are less stable in seawater and require testing and partial re-dosing fairly often (for the Brightwell product, it can be as high as 2x a day).

Coppersafe and Copper Power are more stable. After an initial drop overnight (probably due to reaction with carbonates in the water) the copper level is fairly stable for the next month or so. I usually test weekly just to keep an eye on things.

Cupramine it was. Thanks Jay, sucks getting old.
Apologies @katrinatimm02 my memory is worse than I thought :zany-face:

 

[katrinatimm02]

There are a variety of issues that you need to track. Your initial 18 ml dose should have resulted in a 0.64 ppm reading. You got a higher reading. I think you didn't let the tank mix long enough and you tested a "hot spot". I always wait a few hours before testing.

Then, there is what I call "the tyranny of numbers". Almost without exception, human beings strongly trust the number given them by devices to the level of precision indicated (2 decimals in this case). However, just because a device spits out a number with 2 decimal on the readout, it doesn't mean that some error crept in, either in the unit itself (+ or - 5% I think) or there was a measuring error (I find issues with getting all the powder out) or the machine has some defect.

I find that the first dose of coppersafe tends to react to carbonates in the water, and may drop, say 15% overnight. Subsequent doses seem to hold better.

My favorite way to test all this is to make up some seawater (like for a water change) and as accurately as possible (like using a pipette) add the exact amount of copper for that volume of water, aerate it well and test - you should get around 2.25 ppm. Then, to check your meter's operation, as well as your technique, run the test 2 more times and see how they line up (I know, it's expensive running these tests).

Hey Jay! Thanks for your help and response. My initial dose to be exact was 18.3ml so the reading being 0.71 the next day once leveling out makes sense to me. And I agree that when I tested it a couple mins after and it was 0.90 it was def a hot spot. I bought lots of pipettes and new tubes for testing as well as reagents so I’ll try out your recommendation for the new saltwater! Thanks again :)

 

[katrinatimm02]

Cupramine is was. Thanks Jay, sucks getting old.
Apologies @katrinatimm02 my memory is worse than I thought :zany-face:

Haha no worries at all! It happens to the best of us appreciate your insights either way!