Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for the article. I'm glad I haven't thrown any carbon in my new tank, as I was literally going to be doing that in the next few days.

Is there an alternative for carbon that is recommended? Like one of those seachem things perhaps?

Pelleted carbon isn’t too bad. I’ve not heard about f any issue with cheml pure .
Jay

 

[mindme]

Pelleted carbon isn’t too bad. I’ve not heard about f any issue with cheml pure .
Jay

Would filter socks pick up anything that might escape? Like if I drop the bag in the area the return pipes come into before the filter socks, would those filter socks pick any small parts out? 200 micron felt socks for example.

 

[Mortie31]

Lignite carbon is common here in the US, usually cheaper brands, or product bought in bulk. Any soft dusty carbon is suspect.

Jay

if this claim is correct in 2020 can you please list the cheap brands that are lignite carbon so people can buy with greater knowledge, or list the brands that are pelleted carbon whichever is the easiest for you..

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

if this claim is correct in 2020 can you please list the cheap brands that are lignite carbon so people can buy with greater knowledge, or list the brands that are pelleted carbon whichever is the easiest for you..

Sorry, when my paper was published, I received emails and telephone calls from manufacturers, telling me "their product" was o.k. to use and how dare I publish the paper. Therefore, I'm not willing to list brands. All carbon in the aquarium is just repackaged industrial product anyway. Suffice it to say that dusty, soft carbon should be avoided.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Would filter socks pick up anything that might escape? Like if I drop the bag in the area the return pipes come into before the filter socks, would those filter socks pick any small parts out? 200 micron felt socks for example.

Yes - filter socks help, as do protein skimmers (they trap particulate organic carbon).

Jay

 

[Mortie31]

Sorry, when my paper was published, I received emails and telephone calls from manufacturers, telling me "their product" was o.k. to use and how dare I publish the paper. Therefore, I'm not willing to list brands. All carbon in the aquarium is just repackaged industrial product anyway. Suffice it to say that dusty, soft carbon should be avoided.

Jay

Do manufacturers still use lignite carbon? your paper is very old and it’s important we look at today’s carbon use. As I’ve stated before HLLE is relatively rare and cases of rapid onset as highlighted in your paper rarer still, and this could be because the carbon market has changed and our use of it as well. I don’t agree with scaring/ alarming people unnecessarily and I think this paper is potentially one of them. Is it relevant to today’s situation, is lignite carbon still bought by anyone? Ive not seen any soft carbon in years and hopefully people will listen to the message of don’t use soft carbon only hard pelletised and that you make that very clear as even in your results you gloss over it...

 

[GlassMunky]

Do manufacturers still use lignite carbon? your paper is very old and it’s important we look at today’s carbon use. As I’ve stated before HLLE is relatively rare and cases of rapid onset as highlighted in your paper rarer still, and this could be because the carbon market has changed and our use of it as well. I don’t agree with scaring/ alarming people unnecessarily and I think this paper is potentially one of them. Is it relevant to today’s situation, is lignite carbon still bought by anyone? Ive not seen any soft carbon in years and hopefully people will listen to the message of don’t use soft carbon only hard pelletised and that you make that very clear as even in your results you gloss over it...

if you go look at BRS, the only carbon thats not lignite is their ROX, so yes alot of people still use lignite carbon

 

[Mortie31]

Duplicate

 

[Mortie31]

if you go look at BRS, the only carbon thats not lignite is their ROX, so yes alot of people still use lignite carbon

I’ve just looked on BRS carbon page and the ONLY brand I could find mentioning lignite was BRS own brand.... no other manufacturer stated it. Here’s a link to the page I read...
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/filter-media/carbon.htmlCan you link in the Page that stated that you can ONLY get one carbon that is not lignite and that it’s ROX please, as clearly to me you forgot to mention that they also say they stock other brands...

 

[GlassMunky]

I’ve just looked on BRS carbon page and the ONLY brand I could find mentioning lignite was BRS own brand.... no other manufacturer stated it. Here’s a link to the page I read...
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/filter-media/carbon.htmlCan you link in the Page that stated that you can ONLY get one carbon that is not lignite and that it’s ROX please, as clearly to me you forgot to mention that they also say they stock other brands...

I only said that their brands the Rox is the only non-lignite carbon. but i guess technically their bitumonius carbon isnt lignite but is also soft and has dust.
Mainly you just stated that people dont use lignite anymore and i was showing you that no, in fact they do use it still.
and id be willing to wager than alot of those cheaper brands of "bulk carbon" are lignite rebranded or just as dusty

 

[92Miata]

Lignite carbon is common here in the US, usually cheaper brands, or product bought in bulk. Any soft dusty carbon is suspect.

Jay

I remember reading a case study a while back that suggested the dust was the problem (can't remember where) - so your results make sense to me.

Essentially they saw a rapid uptick in fish with HLLE and it turned out to be a screen in a carbon reactor had failed and carbon was being pulverized. Once the reactor was fixed, fish stopped getting worse.

 

[Mortie31]

I only said that their brands the Rox is the only non-lignite carbon. but i guess technically their bitumonius carbon isnt lignite but is also soft and has dust.
Mainly you just stated that people dont use lignite anymore and i was showing you that no, in fact they do use it still.
and id be willing to wager than alot of those cheaper brands of "bulk carbon" are lignite rebranded or just as dusty

This is what you said... which implies that all carbon sold except ROX is ignite... which patently is not true...

the only carbon thats not lignite is their ROX,

[

 

[GlassMunky]

This is what you said... which implies that all carbon sold except ROX is ignite... which patently is not true...

[

you cant see the forest for the trees

 

[GlassMunky]

This is what you said... which implies that all carbon sold except ROX is ignite... which patently is not true...

[

i said of their brands. get over yourself

 

[Mortie31]

i said of their brands. get over yourself

You didn’t... stop trying to mislead people and imply things that simply aren’t true! why would you do that, it’s pointless? out of 13 carbon products (including BRS own) only one states is lignite and another bitumous! so how you get to your claims is beyond me and hopefully other readers...

 

[MnFish1]

Nice Article. Question - You alluded to it a little in the article - but - what do you think the 'reason' that carbon use is associated with this problem? A toxin from Lignite carbon as compared to pelleted? Does the Lignite carbon remove an element or vitamin, etc more efficiently than pelleted carbon? What still remains unclear to me is 'why' - some people have used carbon for years with no problem and others seem to have this difficulty - to me this suggests an association between carbon and HLLE - but perhaps not the actual underlying 'reason'

 

[MnFish1]

PS - it would have been interesting to have had an ICP test, other water tests in the 3 tanks - but my guess is they were not available back then

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Very helpful article @Jay Hemdal! Thanks!!

 

[moz71]

Great article. Thank you! I was just going to add carbon But remembered hearing this as a possible cause. Your study convinced me. Honestly I don’t see carbon as a necessity anyway so why even bother with it when there is other options. It’s like saying I’m going to feed my kids xxx just because there is no perfect study to prove its bad although many correlations say otherwise.

 

[Miller535]

There is not a single cause of HLLE. I feel that is self evident. There are several. As others have said, I have seen quite a lot of people who never use carbon have fish with HLLE. I am not saying that it can't or doesn't cause it, I just don't think it's a main contributor. Washed well, and in a appropriate reactor where it's not tumbling and grinding itself, I think it's fine. Especially if you put the output either in a filter sock, or in front of the protein skimmer as I do. If someone just dumps it into a reactor not washed well and has it tumbling, then I could see it being a cause. I have 2 tangs that had it. A yellow and a hippo. The yellow barely had it at all, the hippo got it pretty good. I tried everything and ended up doing an icp test that showed an alarming amount of contaminants including copper in my water. Once i dealt with that, over the next 6 or so months their HLLE healed up considerable. These are not new fish either, they are both close to 10 years old. I tend to lean toward @Paul B opinion, that it has a lot do do what tank size, tank mates, aggression, anxiety of the fish, and diet is huge.