Help ID Redness on Yellow Watchman Goby

[Bob Wiley]

See backstory below pics.

The redness appears to be two spots—one under its eye; the other on the corner of its mouth.

(sorry about the reflection of the towel)

But those dots connect sometimes to form a line.

Now, this is still much improved over where it was at a week ago. Back then its gills were bright red as well (see story below). But these couple of red spots have lingered around and I'm not sure why.

For comparison, here is its right side. Looking good and much more normal compared to last week.

------------------------------

Backstory—
Have some fish going through quarantine. We're at the end of the process, past the copper phase, and I've been trying to run them through prazi to finish up. I attempted Prazipro last week, which resulted in extremely cloudy water (no, there was no copper present; yes, I had two sources agitating/breaking the surface of the water: a powerhead pointed up at the surface as well as a HOB filter dumping water from above the surface).

I was afraid the cloudiness was either due to a bacterial bloom, or an ammonia spike. Bacterial bloom because of the Prazipro; ammonia because the YWG was getting red around its gills. However, I had done lots of water changes (at least 40% seven different times in 9 days prior) to get the copper out and to combat the cloudiness. So my initial guess is that any ammonia problems should have been mitigated by this. Regardless, I ended up putting the fish in a bucket and breaking the whole tank down and cleaning everything out. I re-placed the fish a few hours later after putting in 100% new water, carbon and a whole bottle of Dr. Tim's bacteria. I ran it for a few days like this, with no meds, to observe.

The YWG and a firefish were not responding well at all: very lethargic; not eating. YWG was more pale than yellow, and while its gill inflammation had subsided, we still saw redness here and there.

I got some General Cure on Monday (3 days ago) and dosed 1 packet directly into the tank (10 gal).

By the next morning the firefish was completely different. It was actually swimming around like normal and its appetite was coming back. The YWG was also on the mend, doing what YWGs do: crawling around the bottom and hovering around the water column (at least that's what mine has done since we've had it).

In the last two days we have observed the YWG eating, latest being this morning. But that redness remains and I'm not sure why.

 

[Bob Wiley]

Oh yeah, I wanted to mention too that those first two photos of the YWG (the one with the two dots, and the one with the line) were taken 20 mins apart.

Now here is a new shot taken 2 hours after the first one. You can see that the redness is almost entirely gone with just a smidge on the corner of it's mouth, like it has clown makeup on.

The main difference between all of these photos is activity.

1st photo - it was getting ready to be active and eat
2nd photo - it had been active and swimming around
3rd photo - sleeping/resting

 

[Karen00]

I'm following along because I keep up on everything goby related. I know @Jay Hemdal, @Lasse are some of the go to folks for fish illnesses. Hopefully they can assist.

 

[Lasse]

If it still going on eating and look well - no more drugs......IMO. Its hard for me to say what´s the red damage is. It could be a mechanical injury which is on its way to be healed, When did the fish stop eating?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Some fish flush when excited or active, but that is always symmetrical, so does not account for one side like that. If I read correctly, you managed ammonia through water changes, but I didn’t see where you actually tested for it, do you have an ammonia alert badge? Water changes do not always control ammonia...it is not unheard of for ammonia to build at 1ppm per day. Doing a 50% water change per day still leaves you at 0.90 ppm after just 3 days.
Jay

 

[Bob Wiley]

If it still going on eating and look well - no more drugs......IMO.

Honestly, I think I'm at this point.

Its hard for me to say what´s the red damage is. It could be a mechanical injury which is on its way to be healed, When did the fish stop eating?

5-7 days ago is when we noticed it wasn't eating during feeding. This happened at the time when we pulled all the fish, cleaned the QT and re-placed the fish a few hours later. The YWG and firefish were lethargic and not eating during feeding for the first couple of days after the clean. 2 days after the clean I dosed a packet of General Cure at night. On the 3rd day after the clean both fish rebounded and started acting like themselves again. The YWG is still not as active during feeding (normally it would wait for a piece bigger than its head to make it past the clowns, grab it and pull it back to its hiding spot and chomp away). Currently it just kind of crawls around and passes up a bunch of food. It might nibble on a small bit, but definitely not as voracious an eater as it was prior.

I do know that having meds in the water can suppress appetite. And maybe that is the factor with its current state of eating.

If I read correctly, you managed ammonia through water changes, but I didn’t see where you actually tested for it, do you have an ammonia alert badge?

Yes, we had an ammonia alert badge in there since Day 1 of QT and have one now.
At the time we were transitioning out of copper and into prazi last week it was reading yellow. And as the prazi water got more and more cloudy it was still reading yellow. It's possible that it had become faulty, but again, at this point the fish had been in QT for over 50 days total. So if that thing was faulty I would have expected to deal with it earlier on. Furthermore, the YWG wasn't getting red gills until the prazi water got super cloudy.

Now, when we were cleaning the QT this past weekend, I must have messed up the badge in trying to get some grime off it because after that it was part blue and part yellow. I immediately ordered a new badge, which came a day later, installed it and it has read yellow this whole week.

 

[Bob Wiley]

I am in possession of some Methylene Blue now. Wondering if doing a dip makes sense. Not sure if the stress of catch/release/catch/release would worsen the problem tho...

Underside shot from this morning

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What dose are you considering for the MB? I've used 2 to 3 ppm as a static bath. Herwig lists a dose of 50 ppm, but does not give a time frame for that bath. MB is pretty old school....

Jay

 

[Bob Wiley]

I would do what the bottle recommends, unless otherwise instructed differently. It says 5 teaspoons per 3 gallons for a 50ppm and to have them in there no longer than 10 seconds.

But I'd only do this if lots of voices were chiming in saying it was needed. Right now, I'm afraid the catch/release/catch/release and the dip might cause more stress and more harm than good.

 

[Karen00]

I am no expert on fish health issues but wanted to ask whether this red spot is getting worse and how the goby is doing otherwise such as eating, energy, breathing, behavior, etc?. I know your post from yesterday said he's not eating as well and a bit lethargic. Is that the same today? Looking at that pic you posted he looks good (fins are up, etc). Is it possible the red spot is just a residual mark (damage) left behind by whatever caused it in the first place? In which case treating will do nothing because the goby is now fine but possibly still in recovery mode as seen by not being as active, etc.

I too would be concerned the stress of catch and release would be too but obviously would be needed if he has deteriorated.

These are just my thoughts as a goby lover.

 

[Bob Wiley]

He's about the same as yesterday. You can see in a few of those pics that he's laying low next to a PVC pipe. That piece is up against the glass and curves towards the it creating a little cavernous area, where you see him laying, which you have to squeeze into. All that is to say no other fish are going in there and he's adopted it as a little hidey-hole.

He does eat. I've seen him eat. Maybe not as vigorously as before, but he is getting food.

And he does come out and swim around when not feeding. So I would say he's active. He's definitely not lying limp in the middle of the tank completely prone.

I realize both of those things — low energy, loss of appetite — could be the result of having meds in the water (GC). So I'm not as concerned about that... yet. When we get back to regular water and he's not eating or swimming then I'll be more concerned.

The red thing, tho, that's baffling. It grows and subsides. Sometimes it looks like a little beauty mark; other times like a full-on nose bleed. Almost like he has a vein that shows as blood red at various times (like when he gets more active, maybe?).

 

[vetteguy53081]

You said its in quarantine. Is there sand for him? Ive seen this when certain marine fish get stressed with goby being one of them. No sand has an effect on them. Even a tupperware bowl with a little sand would suffice.

 

[Bob Wiley]

You said its in quarantine. Is there sand for him? Ive seen this when certain marine fish get stressed with goby being one of them. No sand has an effect on them. Even a tupperware bowl with a little sand would suffice.

No sand. A we're at the end of quarantine so I'm not going to worry about putting a bowl of sand in there now.

How long do you think it would take without sand before it has an effect on them? It's been in there for about 60 days total, but only started showing these signs within the last two weeks.

I'm thinking of not even bothering with the second dose of GC, doing a water change tomorrow and getting the clowns out of there this weekend (DT is new, so I want to intro fish slowly and not overload DT life support).

 

[Karen00]

Maybe there was some damage to that area of redness and, as you mentioned, it seems to get a bit bigger with increased blood flow from activity, etc. I'd say hold off on any more treatment and see what happens once you get him in your DT. Hopefully he gets back to normal eating and activity once out of QT and meds.

I agree about what vetteguy said regarding sand. He might also be a bit stressed not having that. I am eagerly following his progress. My fingers are crossed that he's OK!

 

[vetteguy53081]

No sand. A we're at the end of quarantine so I'm not going to worry about putting a bowl of sand in there now.

How long do you think it would take without sand before it has an effect on them? It's been in there for about 60 days total, but only started showing these signs within the last two weeks.

I'm thinking of not even bothering with the second dose of GC, doing a water change tomorrow and getting the clowns out of there this weekend (DT is new, so I want to intro fish slowly and not overload DT life support).

That will be up to the fish, its overall health and diet

 

[Jay Hemdal]

No sand. A we're at the end of quarantine so I'm not going to worry about putting a bowl of sand in there now.

How long do you think it would take without sand before it has an effect on them? It's been in there for about 60 days total, but only started showing these signs within the last two weeks.

I'm thinking of not even bothering with the second dose of GC, doing a water change tomorrow and getting the clowns out of there this weekend (DT is new, so I want to intro fish slowly and not overload DT life support).

You mention being at the end of quarantine- but with this unknown problem, I think you should extend it. My rule of thumb is 45 days AFTER the last symptom was seen. I’m very conservative because I can’t risk bringing in any disease into my main systems, but I’d wait two weeks at least.
Jay

 

[Bob Wiley]

I agree about what vetteguy said regarding sand. He might also be a bit stressed not having that. I am eagerly following his progress. My fingers are crossed that he's OK!

I think I will dredge up a piece of tupperware and get some sand out of my DT tomorrow. (Shudders at the thought of getting into the tupperware cabinet).

Any recommendations on size of tupperware or amount of sand? I'm assuming "small" and enough for an inch deep? He's still small. Probably about 2" long.

You mention being at the end of quarantine- but with this unknown problem, I think you should extend it. My rule of thumb is 45 days AFTER the last symptom was seen. I’m very conservative because I can’t risk bringing in any disease into my main systems, but I’d wait two weeks at least.
Jay

Yeah, good call. Fortunately we're at least two weeks away from adding the goby anyway. And you're right I don't want to put him in the DT until I know for sure he's good to go.

So would you recommend not doing the second dose of GC this weekend and instead just do a large water change and place carbon in the filter to try and get all meds out of the water? And then just observe all the fish and see how they do?

 

[Salty Rambler]

Asking as an interested observer -- from your other QT post it looks like this QT contains the goby, a firefish, a blenny and two clownfish. When the goby and firefish became lethargic, was there any similar response noted from the clownfish or the blenny? Have you observed either the goby or firefish flashing again since the instances noted in the earlier QT days? At one point you were speculating that the clownfish might have been nipping at the firefish -- any chance they are nipping at the goby when he nears the pipes?

 

[Bob Wiley]

Asking as an interested observer -- from your other QT post it looks like this QT contains the goby, a firefish, a blenny and two clownfish.

Correct.

When the goby and firefish became lethargic, was there any similar response noted from the clownfish or the blenny?

No. The clowns remained normal happy little puppies. The blenny, by it's nature, sits in one spot and doesn't swim around. Since I don't have rock in here for it to hide in, it hangs out in a corner of the tank along the black margins of the bottom rim. He is hard to see if you don't know he is there. But we do know he's been eating because we see him flash and dash for food.

Have you observed either the goby or firefish flashing again since the instances noted in the earlier QT days?

Good question, no! I was just thinking about this earlier tonight. Since dosing GC 4 days ago I have not seen that firefish flashing. Same goes for the goby.

At one point you were speculating that the clownfish might have been nipping at the firefish -- any chance they are nipping at the goby when he nears the pipes?

I don't think they nip the goby, but one of the clowns will definitely swim down to the bottom and just kind of make its presence known. Again, I haven't seen any nipping in these cases. Its more just territorial warding off. Like they have to clear the airspace around them. Which is funny because the food that makes it to the bottom is the larger chunks that the clowns don't want anyway. So why they care if the goby is around to clean up their mess is beyond me. (By the way, the firefish's dorsal fin is growing back nicely :D). Also, I can't be sure its either of the clowns that was doing the nipping. I do suspect it might have been the blenny, as its a fast little sucker and in going for a piece of food it might accidentally nip a fin if a fish is in the vicinity.

 

[Karen00]

I think I will dredge up a piece of tupperware and get some sand out of my DT tomorrow. (Shudders at the thought of getting into the tupperware cabinet).

Any recommendations on size of tupperware or amount of sand? I'm assuming "small" and enough for an inch deep? He's still small. Probably about 2" long.

I'm sure a small Tupperware container will be fine. It just gives him something to hunker down on that's natural for him to reduce any stress especially if he'll be there for a while longer like Jay mentioned. He might not use it but at least it's there. I think you said he staked out a hidey hole PVC pipe. Put it beside that if you can or even better, sit it on the sand in the Tupperware if it will fit (or add a smaller piece if you have one if the current one doesn't fit).

I had to laugh when you mentioned using Tupperware for the tank. Did you see the thread where the OP asked about the kinda of kitchen stuff people use in their tanks (and then put the stuff back)? That was so funny. You can add this to the thread! Haha.