Herbie drain help needed

[jaihutcherson]

Hey all!

I have a very noisy Herbie that is draining bubbles...

I have a 150 gallon custom tank with holes drilled in the bottom going to a tigger systems 30 gallon sump. I amusing 1” drain lines, both emergency and main drain. I have (2) dc 2245gph pumps going upthrough bottom drilled holes and t out to lokline. I have built this same system over and over on every custom tank I make. .... with one exception; I did not use overflow boxes. My pvc comes straight up out of the bulk head (1”) and I have a strainer on top of that that looks a lot like a ufo and about 4” across. Yes it get enough flow through it. I even pulled the pvc out of the bulk head to test the theory.

with the exception of no overflow box this system has worked for me over and over. The head of the pvc is about 8 inches down at this point, I’ve cut it twice in testing. I’ve checked every joint for leaks and can find none. There is no little tornado looking thing on the top of the water indicating air getting in.

I have alsocut my emergency drain down to make it a main drain and see if I was getting the same problem. Yup! Exact same issue. So I am figuring it’s got to be a no overflow box issue but absolutely do not under stand why.

please, someone tell me what to try, why my attempt at no overflowbox won’t work, or just slap me real hard and lead me down a better path.

thanks in advance for reading this long post and for the help you ay be able to offer me!

 

[Biglew11]

https://blog.marinedepot.com/education-center/charts-diagrams/durso-herbie-bean-animal-overflow

 

[Chuk]

I'm not sure how this would work without an overflow box. Normally you're supposed to close the main drain valve until the water level just trickles into the emergency. It usually gets loud/ bubbly when the level is too low inside the box. I'm thinking your main drain may not be closed enough to get a full siphon. So you can try closing the main drain valve a bit to see if that goes away. The other issue could be that your flow is high enough to start pullilng a vortex into the drain. You can make a vortex breaker if that's the problem. Those are typically just an X piece across the drain to break up the vortex when it starts to spin.

 

[jaihutcherson]

Thank you for the reply. I was getting a vortex until I started cutting the main drain pipe lower and lower. I finally just pulled the thing out of the bulk head just to test. No vortex at that point but still the bubbles. I did set it up as recommended and used many times by backing off main drain until trickle through the emergency. It didn’t matter how open or closed the drain was/is, still get bubbles..... at all levels. I bought my pvc gate valves at an online discount supply store. I’m beginning to wonder if the somehow are letting air pass. The issue is, if air was getting in the system through piping water would be getting out the same way. No leaks what so ever.
Again thanks for your reply. I will keep the vortex buster in my back pocket for future builds.

 

[jaihutcherson]

https://blog.marinedepot.com/education-center/charts-diagrams/durso-herbie-bean-animal-overflow

Set up just like the diagrams as I always do, but no flow box. Client wanted “bare” with only a screen to protect fish. But thank you for your input. Always welcomed.

 

[lmm1967]

open the valves on the shorter drain pipes all the way. Make sure the water level stays BELOW the emergency. No water flowing over the emergency pipe.

Close valve on main drain pipes slowly until the water just barely starts going down the secondary drain pipe.

Wait 15 minutes - at least - for air to clear out.

If that doesn't work - you're pushing too much flow.

Another note - without an overflow box - does the sump actually have the capacity to handle all water that drains when the pumps turn off?

Also - surface agitation may make it impossible to manage the proper amount of water going down the overflow drain - if that volume fluctuates due to surface agitation I think you'll have a never ending issue.

 

[Chuk]

Vacuum leaks are hard to find because obviously they suck in instead of out. In the power industry we do helium checks to see if there is air getting sucked in from outside to find the leak. You wont be able to do that. However in a pinch you can use a cigarette or cigar.
Light it up and get it smoking. Then move the smoke around the areas you think there is or could be a leak and if there is a stream of air being sucked in the smoke will follow it. If you client doesn't want cigarette or cigar smoke in their house you can try aviation oil and an oil diffuser to make the smoke. You want something that makes a small stream of smoke not billowing, like a humidifier, so you can actually follow it to a point where the leak would be happening.

 

[Snoopy 67]

Let's just try running 1 pump & eliminate any surface movement you might have.
If that works run the other again, but make sure the water surface remains "calm".
Counter intuitive but like Imm1967 said any waves will cause problems.
Also make sure the drains are not deeper than 1" in the sump.
That should tell you something.

 

[jaihutcherson]

open the valves on the shorter drain pipes all the way. Make sure the water level stays BELOW the emergency. No water flowing over the emergency pipe.

Close valve on main drain pipes slowly until the water just barely starts going down the secondary drain pipe.

Wait 15 minutes - at least - for air to clear out.

If that doesn't work - you're pushing too much flow.

Another note - without an overflow box - does the sump actually have the capacity to handle all water that drains when the pumps turn off?

Also - surface agitation may make it impossible to manage the proper amount of water going down the overflow drain - if that volume fluctuates due to surface agitation I think you'll have a never ending issue.

Sorry for such late reply. COVID got me about the time I started this thread. Feeling up to at least reading and maybe trying some things.....

set up the system exactly as you described as well as turned off all wave pumps in beginning. Have since re-plumbed all drains just to make sure didn’t have any vacuum leaks or anything I couldn’t actually see. (Plumbing is easy to me so it was quick and gave me peace of mind).

ive actually opened both drains up to full and my two pumps are more than enough to keep up and return the flow. I get a lot of water moving noise as you can imagine. At one point moving a minimum of 6000g an hour. Didthis simply to see if I could chance any air bubbles out.

I cut my main feed pipes down to numbs at bottom of tank, backed pumps down to about 2000g an hour and set the drains to Keep up with returns. Same issue. Bubbles and lots of noise. No little tornados above the drains in display.

if I turn my main drains down to what feels like trickle, turn one pump off, and the other set to lowest setting.... roughly 1050g an hour, all noise goes away.K so flow to high.... too high for what? WhT can I change, do or set to be able to get better flow out of a dbl drilled 150g tank than 1050?

thank

Vacuum leaks are hard to find because obviously they suck in instead of out. In the power industry we do helium checks to see if there is air getting sucked in from outside to find the leak. You wont be able to do that. However in a pinch you can use a cigarette or cigar.
Light it up and get it smoking. Then move the smoke around the areas you think there is or could be a leak and if there is a stream of air being sucked in the smoke will follow it. If you client doesn't want cigarette or cigar smoke in their house you can try aviation oil and an oil diffuser to make the smoke. You want something that makes a small stream of smoke not billowing, like a humidifier, so you can actually follow it to a point where the leak would be happening.

dang, that’s a good idea!!!

 

[Snoopy 67]

I have a chart for sch. 40, looked quickly for sch. 80 but ng.
I know the ID is less therefore less flow through the piping.
1" - 40 flows 16 GPM = 960 GPH even using this figure 1 drain pipe will not cut it for high flow.

 

[jaihutcherson]

I’ve switched out pumps; 1050gph now. I’ve re-plumbed the entire set-up minus bulk heads. I’ve slowed the flow to what seems a crawl with the pumps at the lowest setting.... somewhere around 600gph I believe. I’ve went with straight pipe with crosshatch weir on top to eliminate vortex, and even dropped that pipe to 3” above bottom; 14” from top of water..... dangerous as hell admittedly, but this was all for testing purposes. Right (short side) I get manageable noise no longer sucking air but still flowing big pooping bubbles out the pipe (1” below water) making some noise. Left side, long side, nothing has changed; air, bubbles, noise. What is crazy is I just installed this exact set-up last week and the week before that and yes even the week before that and it was absolutely silent, no bubbles, full siphon , worked like they were supposed to. The only difference was they all had over flow boxes either in the rear or sides of the tank with a comb still weir. I see this set up in every LFS I visit in their Frag tanks. What am I missing doing wrong etc. oh, and and this may be a big and, these are not my usual bulk heads. These are uniseal brand. First time to use them???? They seam exact same as my normal brand

 

[Chuk]

How much water is above the level of the main drain bulkhead? Typically there’s 3-5” of head over the main drain pipe To where is goes into the emergency pipe, so there’s a chance you might not actually be pulling a siphon without that water over the bulkhead level.

 

[jaihutcherson]

Hey! Thanks for the reply!!!
Total water level above main drain bulk heads is 17”. Ive put the actual drain from 3” all the way up to 16” from the bulk head. I’ve also just pulled the drain out of the bulk head and used the bulk head to see. I do not feel that I am getting a full siphon.

 

[Snoopy 67]

A picture of the water surface by the drains would also help us brainstorm.

 

[jaihutcherson]

Ok, no prob. In these pics you can see I’m in testing/eliminating stage. Right side drain a bit more flow around it and lower in the tank. Left side higher in tank with absolutely no flow around it. Let me know thoughts.

 

[Snoopy 67]

Depth looks OK but how about the openings? I see a white piece, side view only. There has to be something preventing fish being sucked into the pipes. Perhaps a strainer would be a better option.

Bulkhead Overflow Strainers

Prevents fish snails and other tank inhabitants from getting sucked into your plumbing, sump or pump and subsequent damage. Slip Bulkhead Strainers: ½” Slip Bulkhead Strainer ¾" Slip Bulkhead Strainer 1" Slip Bulkhead Strainer Thread Bulkhead Strainers: ¾” Thread Bulkhead Strainer...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[jaihutcherson]

I started with a 4”x1/4” round “ufo” looking strainer. Moved to a piece of “egg create” on top of another to eliminate vortex and keep fish out. No change. If/when I find a solution I will go back to original strainer. I really like them. Here is pic of strainer. Water distorting it. It’s actually a square with another square on top of angle.

 

[jaihutcherson]

Ok. ....
Just got here to revamp it all. Go with a “dean” or vented system. Something.

it’s quiet as a mouse. No bubbles. No flushing toilet sounds. Working like a “Herbie” should. Time to work out the air pockets in the pvc I’m guessing. Will keep you posted as to it’s ability to hold the siphon and keep quiet. I am going to try to put the original strainer back on as that is what the client originally wanted. Lol maybe fasten it on top of the “egg create” for looks alone.

thanks to all that chimes in!!!