How do they make bottled bacteria?

[Miami Reef]

Let’s use Fritz Turbo Start 9 as an example, since @taricha tested and confirmed it contains nitrifying bacteria…

How do they culture such a large amount to sell bottles to the masses? What’s the process like, and how do they transfer the bacteria into bottles? Do they use culture tanks? How do they do it? Do you feed or dose ammonia?

Can a person by a bottle of Fritz and make an unlimited amount from that starting culture?


I’ve wondered this for SO long.

 

[Garf]

Let’s use Fritz Turbo Start 9 as an example, since @taricha tested and confirmed it contains nitrifying bacteria…

How do they culture such a large amount to sell bottles to the masses? What’s the process like, and how do they transfer the bacteria into bottles? Do they use culture tanks? How do they do it? Do you feed or dose ammonia?

Can a person by a bottle of Fritz and make an unlimited amount from that starting culture?


I’ve wondered this for SO long.

 

[Malcontent]

Probably in some kind of bioreactor. It's probably expensive and not that easy which is why many companies take a shortcut and just buy freeze dried heterotrophic bacteria, add water, and bottle it.

 

[Dragen Fiend]

I mean it shouldn't be too hard. Similar to growing phyto right?

I've seen startups use plastic jugs, get a certain concentration then bottle it up. Though I believe it comes down to isolating and ensuring you have the correct strains which could be hard.

So...time for an experiment I guess :D

 

[Miami Reef]

Thank you for this video

 

[JumboShrimp]

That manufacturer's video seems to stress the need for it to be kept refrigerated, right through the sale at the LFS. I've seen it sitting right out on the shelf (room temperature) at several LFS'.

Pun: "Not Cool!"

 

[Raul-7]

Is Fritz the only legitimate brand? Kind of like BIO-Spira back in the day that arrived in Styrofoam with ice packs.

Where can it be purchased refrigerated?

 

[FrugalReeferJon]

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Biogical processes are much harder to control than chemical process, and as hard as they try, there are going to be differences batch to batch.

I’ll give a couple of examples related to my work experience.

Genzyme had programs on cell therapies for many years. A cell therapy is like a medication that consists of cells instead of a chemical. One of the biggest challenges was to ensure that the product, whatever it was, involved trying to ensure that the product contained the same numbers of the same types of cells every time. For the entire time I worked there, no such therapies were able to advance into people, and this was one of the reasons.

A second example involved a protein pharmaceutical made by cells in a bioreactor. It turned out that the product made was quite sensitive to the conditions inside the reactor, and even a simple change in the size of the reactor changed the protein structure in subtle ways. Such changes are not necessarily ok, and a reactor size increase to ramp up production involved new human trials. For a while Genzyme had two different approvals for the drug depending on the reactor size used.

 

[GARRIGA]

Purchased Fritz at an LFS which had it refrigerated and assumed was refrigerated from manufacturer to distributor to store. Big faith assumption but what other options do I have.

Curious if those getting this online get theirs in cold packs.

Have used One and Only and BioSpira and both worked as advertised therefore my conclusion being all these products benefit from being refrigerated yet remain viable and effective if not kept refrigerated. Could be the better effectiveness of Fritz being that sample kept refrigerated. Think I recall he also tested warm sample but not sure on that or the results. Beats dealing with dead shrimp or live fish.

 

[tREEFarm]

Fritz sends it out from their facility with cold packs in styrofoam containers.

 

[GARRIGA]

Fritz sends it out from their facility with cold packs in styrofoam containers.

Does that mean when ordering from companies such as BRS that Fritz still the shipper and BRS relying on drop shipments?

 

[Miami Reef]

Biogical processes are much harder to control than chemical process, and as hard as they try, there are going to be differences batch to batch.

I’ll give a couple of examples related to my work experience.

Genzyme had programs on cell therapies for many years. A cell therapy is like a medication that consists of cells instead of a chemical. One of the biggest challenges was to ensure that the product, whatever it was, involved trying to ensure that the product contained the same numbers of the same types of cells every time. For the entire time I worked there, no such therapies were able to advance into people, and this was one of the reasons.

A second example involved a protein pharmaceutical made by cells in a bioreactor. It turned out that the product made was quite sensitive to the conditions inside the reactor, and even a simple change in the size of the reactor changed the protein structure in subtle ways. Such changes are not necessarily ok, and a reactor size increase to ramp up production involved new human trials. For a while Genzyme had two different approvals for the drug depending on the reactor size used.

Very interesting, and that makes a lot of sense.

Imagine how difficult it would be to culture specific cells for medical use without it somehow getting contaminated. The cells needing to have a specific protein structure is so wild to me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Very interesting, and that makes a lot of sense.

Imagine how difficult it would be to culture specific cells for medical use without it somehow getting contaminated. The cells needing to have a specific protein structure is so wild to me.

Many proteins are a lot more complicated than people think. They often are not just a string of amino acids of a certain composition, but involve many different changes after the chain is made.

Some amino acids in a protein are chemically linked to others, helping hold the protein is a very specific 3D conformation.

There are also lots of changes organisms make to them, called post translational modification. Very often these are glycosylation (attachment of sugars) and phosphorylation (attachment of phosphate) to the protein to give it specific attributes.

https://peakproteins.com/beginners-guide-to-glycosylation-of-proteins/

 

[CoralB]

following :cool:

 

[taricha]

Let’s use Fritz Turbo Start 9 as an example, since @taricha tested and confirmed it contains nitrifying bacteria…

How do they culture such a large amount to sell bottles to the masses? What’s the process like, and how do they transfer the bacteria into bottles? Do they use culture tanks? How do they do it? Do you feed or dose ammonia?

Can a person by a bottle of Fritz and make an unlimited amount from that starting culture?


I’ve wondered this for SO long.

Yes, you could possibly culture up nitrifiers for your own personal use without too much difficulty. (I'd never buy stuff cultured by a hobbyist for the reasons discussed above). Jim Graham has posted interesting data that suggests even some of the full-time operations may have issues with culture control - though mostly in heterotrophs. nitrifiers are a much more limited set of candidates.
I can guess some ways that it could be grown at scale, but i don't know if the bacteria would like it. I'd try in a flask on an orbital shaker to see if I could get nitrifiers to grow suspended in the water because that would let me get more cells that way.
Given that we scale up the nitrifying capacity by maybe 100x during tank cycling, I'd guess that we can pretty easily meet the chemical needs for cell growth. @Dan_P would correctly point out here that we don't know if we are actually growing new cells when cycling or if we are simply taking resting cells and giving them conditions to allow them to return to function. I think it's more new growth, but certainly some of both and I don't have data to prove which.

 

[Raul-7]

Does that mean when ordering from companies such as BRS that Fritz still the shipper and BRS relying on drop shipments?

To anyone who has ordered Fritz at any time, did it arrive in a styrofoam box with cold packs? I would like to find a retailer who keeps it refrigerated.

 

[Dan_P]

Thank you so much for this video. The whole operation is SO interesting. They work so clean and sterile. I think I’ll always buy their bottled bacteria from now on.

Actually, they are not working clean nor sterile. They get away with it because nitrifying bacteria media probably supports very little else.

Watch the video again and notice how samples are taken by hand from the bioreactors, via opening a reactor hatch (!) or ingredients contained in open pails are poured into the reactor. You could be watching a beer brewing operation. If can grow phytoplankton you could probably have a good chance growing nitrifying bacteria.

 

[Dan_P]

Yes, you could possibly culture up nitrifiers for your own personal use without too much difficulty. (I'd never buy stuff cultured by a hobbyist for the reasons discussed above). Jim Graham has posted interesting data that suggests even some of the full-time operations may have issues with culture control - though mostly in heterotrophs. nitrifiers are a much more limited set of candidates.
I can guess some ways that it could be grown at scale, but i don't know if the bacteria would like it. I'd try in a flask on an orbital shaker to see if I could get nitrifiers to grow suspended in the water because that would let me get more cells that way.
Given that we scale up the nitrifying capacity by maybe 100x during tank cycling, I'd guess that we can pretty easily meet the chemical needs for cell growth. @Dan_P would correctly point out here that we don't know if we are actually growing new cells when cycling or if we are simply taking resting cells and giving them conditions to allow them to return to function. I think it's more new growth, but certainly some of both and I don't have data to prove which.

Definitely bacteria multiplication is needed.

Notice that Fritz is growing the bacteria as a suspension but we use the bacteria growing in a biofilm. This conversion from pelagic to benthic takes time. Initially, ammonia is being consumed mostly by organisms in the water. If you were to do a water change after just a few days of cycling, you’d lose most of the nitrifying capacity. After some time the biofilm is established and the nitrifying capacity moves from the water to the aquarium surfaces. Aquarium water rarely if ever converts ammonia to nitrite to nitrate.

 

[Miami Reef]

Actually, they are not working clean nor sterile. They get away with it because nitrifying bacteria media probably supports very little else.

Watch the video again and notice how samples are taken by hand from the bioreactors, via opening a reactor hatch (!) or ingredients contained in open pails are poured into the reactor. You could be watching a beer brewing operation. If can grow phytoplankton you could probably have a good chance growing nitrifying bacteria.

Thanks for pointing this out! Can you explain how taking a sample with gloves breaks sterility? This is interesting to me.