How do we determine appropriate tank temps for different fish?

[cdw79]

I've been reading about Gulf Signal Blannies that are endemic to the Sea of Cortez. There is veryyy little info out there on these species, but some cite its origins from the Sea of Cortez as evidence that it would need lower tank temps than we offer in reef tanks.

I want to be clear I am in no way stating this as fact or have any expertise in this space, but I did some research, and this didn't make much sense to me.

According to a Google search, the Sea of Cortez swings between 66 and 84 Fahrenheit over the course of a year. To me that would mean that the fish could, in theory, survive in any of those temps?

The average of those two temps is 75 degrees, so maybe that would be a sweet spot? No idea if that's how an ideal tank temp is determined, but if a fish experiences 84 degree water for months on end, surely a 77 degree tank would be acceptable? This particular species is said to be found in very shallow waters too, which seems like it would lend credence to the idea that this isn't a sub-tropical species, yet I see them labeled as such in several other threads.

Maybe it's more complicated than this, but I find it puzzling as I try to work out whether these fish could be well-suited for our reef tanks. Maybe anyone with deeper knowledge could weigh in!

 

[KrisReef]

I live in southern california and this time of year I am cold and uncomfortable. I tend to hybernate, hiding in my room under an electric blanket for hours at a time.

We lived in Humboldt County for 7 years, there it rarely gets above 70 and 64 F is probably the average. That climate also has a lot of rain, more rain is needed to grow the giant redwoods that are native there. Those redwoods can be kept in southern california but it takes a lot of irrigation and they still don't grow properly, not as tall and they look dehydrated and sickly much of the time.

The tropics, the water is 75F or more year round. Sea of Cortez has a nice winter chilly season that lots of the fish look forward to (If they are like people?)

I have a neighbor who is always hot in southern california, he would be happier living in Humbold County. So lets reverse anthropormorphize some of that people data.

So I don't know fish that closely, but I bet a lot of tropical fish would get sick and not thrive if they were kept in 64F for longer then a week. The other thing about oceanic fish, is that they can move up and down in water depth to maintain their happy spot. A fish in a tank that is uniform temperature is really unnatural. They can get used to it, but I think they were built for the places where they are found. IN hot water years a lot of Mexican fishes will show up along the California shoreline in September -October, but by November these rare southern fishes vanish from nearshore net surveys. Unpublished data. (1996-1999)

 

[cdw79]

I get that fish can move up and down in their environments to find water temps they'd like, but by that logic no tank could ever be hospitable to any fish because it will always be at a standard temperature, and there's nowhere a fish can go within the aquarium to escape the tank's temperature.

@Jay Hemdal , any chance you have some insight here? Others?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I get that fish can move up and down in their environments to find water temps they'd like, but by that logic no tank could ever be hospitable to any fish because it will always be at a standard temperature, and there's nowhere a fish can go within the aquarium to escape the tank's temperature.

@Jay Hemdal , any chance you have some insight here? Others?

For our tropical animals, a steady temperature is fine. I’ve kept fish for decades at 78 f. Plus or minus 2 degrees with no issues.

Coldwater species are the same, but within their proper range of course. I kept some coldwater sea stars for 20+ years at 55 degrees.

The issue that may arise are with temperate species. Some of those do best with seasonal variation. Walleye for example can live fine at 75, but they need a seasonal cool down. Goldfish won’t spawn unless they go through a seasonal temperature drop.

 

[cdw79]

For our tropical animals, a steady temperature is fine. I’ve kept fish for decades at 78 f. Plus or minus 2 degrees with no issues.

Coldwater species are the same, but within their proper range of course. I kept some coldwater sea stars for 20+ years at 55 degrees.

The issue that may arise are with temperate species. Some of those do best with seasonal variation. Walleye for example can live fine at 75, but they need a seasonal cool down. Goldfish won’t spawn unless they go through a seasonal temperature drop.

So in this Sea of Cortez example, how should we understand what an "appropriate" range of temps would be? To what extent would "standard" reef temps be appropriate for a 66-84 degree temp range? It feels reasonable to assume than a temp of 77 degrees, roughly right in the middle, would be very appropriate, but I realize I'm no expert

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So in this Sea of Cortez example, how should we understand what an "appropriate" range of temps would be? To what extent would "standard" reef temps be appropriate for a 66-84 degree temp range? It feels reasonable to assume than a temp of 77 degrees, roughly right in the middle, would be very appropriate, but I realize I'm no expert

The sea of Cortez ranges through a very wide range of temperatures due to its long north/south axis. If you’re talking around Cabo, I always aimed for 74 to 77 F. Up in Penasco, there is a wider temperature variation seasonally.

I’ve always felt that some regional Baja fish; blue spot jaws, horn sharks, garibaldi and Blueband gobies all do better in cooler water, or at least with some variation.

 

[BloopFish]

So in this Sea of Cortez example, how should we understand what an "appropriate" range of temps would be? To what extent would "standard" reef temps be appropriate for a 66-84 degree temp range? It feels reasonable to assume than a temp of 77 degrees, roughly right in the middle, would be very appropriate, but I realize I'm no expert

Did you not read the last paragraph of his reply?

 

[cdw79]

Did you not read the last paragraph of his reply?

Yes, and I asked a question in relation to the specific animal and region I'm talking about, which he very kindly replied to. Sorry if my execution wasn't to your liking

 

[cdw79]

The sea of Cortez ranges through a very wide range of temperatures due to its long north/south axis. If you’re talking around Cabo, I always aimed for 74 to 77 F. Up in Penasco, there is a wider temperature variation seasonally.

I’ve always felt that some regional Baja fish; blue spot jaws, horn sharks, garibaldi and Blueband gobies all do better in cooler water, or at least with some variation.

Thank you for this, this is really helpful. In the case I'm not able to get specific info on where one is collected, seems like maybe I could aim for 77 and go down to maybe 75? Trying to keep in mind the preferences of the other fish and coral as well, unless that doesn't feel like enough of a swing to you. How long have you maintained the lower temp when you've done this?

Thanks again for your insight here, feeling a little less like I'm walking blind!

 

[BloopFish]

Yes, and I asked a question in relation to the specific animal and region I'm talking about, which he very kindly replied to. Sorry if my execution wasn't to your liking

He clearly implied a static temperature may not be the best for temperature fish, yet you pressed on again to ask for a fixed temperature of 77...

 

[cdw79]

He clearly implied a static temperature may not be the best for temperature fish, yet you pressed on again to ask for a fixed temperature of 77...

"The issue that may arise are with temperate species. Some of those do best with seasonal variation. Walleye for example can live fine at 75, but they need a seasonal cool down. Goldfish won’t spawn unless they go through a seasonal temperature drop."

Geez man. He sure did, for some species. Given bennies and Walleye seem like pretty different species, I asked for clarity about a specific fish and region, since he also suggested this may not be the case for all species. Beyond that, fluctuating or not, I wanted to know what a starting point would be to fluctuate from. I feel like these are pretty fair things to clarify before dropping a hefty sum of money on a poorly understood species. Maybe that's just me. In any case, if my questions upset you, that's not my intention. I'm just trying to do my due diligence ahead of an exciting potential purchase

 

[BloopFish]

"The issue that may arise are with temperate species. Some of those do best with seasonal variation. Walleye for example can live fine at 75, but they need a seasonal cool down. Goldfish won’t spawn unless they go through a seasonal temperature drop."

Geez man. He sure did, for some species. Given bennies and Walleye seem like pretty different species, I asked for clarity about a specific fish and region, since he also suggested this may not be the case for all species. Beyond that, fluctuating or not, I wanted to know what a starting point would be to fluctuate from. I feel like these are pretty fair things to clarify before dropping a hefty sum of money on a poorly understood species. Maybe that's just me. In any case, if my questions upset you, that's not my intention. I'm just trying to do my due diligence ahead of an exciting potential purchase

He didn't say it was just for walleyes or that blennies are excluded. You're just cherry picking and fishing for answers that just happen to be more convenient for you.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you for this, this is really helpful. In the case I'm not able to get specific info on where one is collected, seems like maybe I could aim for 77 and go down to maybe 75? Trying to keep in mind the preferences of the other fish and coral as well, unless that doesn't feel like enough of a swing to you. How long have you maintained the lower temp when you've done this?

Thanks again for your insight here, feeling a little less like I'm walking blind!

It boils down to what species? Some fish in the region are tropical waifs ( yellow puffers, longnose hawks, etc.). They do best at a constant, warmer temperature. Some are cool water species (horn sharks, blue banded gobies) and some are cool/tropical endemics (blue spot jaws, passer angels). The latter are the ones that probably fo best with more annual cycling of temperature.

 

[cdw79]

It boils down to what species? Some fish in the region are tropical waifs ( yellow puffers, longnose hawks, etc.). They do best at a constant, warmer temperature. Some are cool water species (horn sharks, blue banded gobies) and some are cool/tropical endemics (blue spot jaws, passer angels). The latter are the ones that probably fo best with more annual cycling of temperature.

The species I'm looking at is the Golf Signal Blenny, Emblemaria hypacanthus. FishBase says Gulf of California (i.e. Gulf of Cortez as I understand it), but doesn't seem to specify much else bar the depth of collection: https://www.fishbase.se/summary/Emblemaria-hypacanthus

Is that enough info to understand which of the three categories these guys might fall under, or would we need to know more? If it does fall under the cooler water species, what would you peg as an appropriate floor and ceiling temp, from the info we do have? Have you had issues bringing tropical species a below that 76-80 degree range you referenced? Really appreciate the insight

 

[BloopFish]

The species I'm looking at is the Golf Signal Blenny, Emblemaria hypacanthus. FishBase says Gulf of California (i.e. Gulf of Cortez as I understand it), but doesn't seem to specify much else bar the depth of collection: https://www.fishbase.se/summary/Emblemaria-hypacanthus

Is that enough info to understand which of the three categories these guys might fall under, or would we need to know more? If it does fall under the cooler water species, what would you peg as an appropriate floor and ceiling temp, from the info we do have? Have you had issues bringing tropical species a below that 76-80 degree range you referenced? Really appreciate the insight

Are you sure you did any research about this species? It should be clear to you by now that it does not fit at least one of the three aforementioned categories. It is not a waif to the Gulf of California as it by definition cannot be because it is an endemic. Also, the Gulf of Cortez is not a real place, it is called the Sea of Cortez.

 

[cdw79]

Are you sure you did any research about this species? It should be clear to you by now that it does not fit at least one of the three aforementioned categories. It is not a waif to the Gulf of California as it by definition cannot be because it is an endemic. Also, the Gulf of Cortez is not a real place, it is called the Sea of Cortez.

Man we're really down to criticizing a gulf vs sea typo. Why are you so angry? Based on your comment history, it seems like talking down to people is something you seem to really get off on. If correcting Gulf of Cortez to Sea of Cortez is what makes you feel something, by all means brother, you do you. I'm looking forward to learning more about something new, deciding if that works for my system, and either exploring that new path or looking at different species instead

 

[BloopFish]

Man we're really down to criticizing a gulf vs sea typo. Why are you so angry? Based on your comment history, it seems like talking down to people is something you seem to really get off on. If correcting Gulf of Cortez to Sea of Cortez is what makes you feel something, by all means brother, you do you. I'm looking forward to learning more about something new, deciding if that works for my system, and either exploring that new path or looking at different species instead

Sea of Cortez can dip to the 60s during the winter. You can easily verify this by looking up dive information for this location where people photograph this fish. It peaks close to what would be considered tropical waters during the summer, but this is a temporary seasonal change. Prolonged temperature increase for temperate species is ill advised if they are a species strictly endemic to this life style. I don't know why you want to personally attack me, I am trying to just help you figure out that this fish is unsuitable for a normal reef tank. The fish's biology won't simply change because of your desires or attacking me personally.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The species I'm looking at is the Golf Signal Blenny, Emblemaria hypacanthus. FishBase says Gulf of California (i.e. Gulf of Cortez as I understand it), but doesn't seem to specify much else bar the depth of collection: https://www.fishbase.se/summary/Emblemaria-hypacanthus

Is that enough info to understand which of the three categories these guys might fall under, or would we need to know more? If it does fall under the cooler water species, what would you peg as an appropriate floor and ceiling temp, from the info we do have? Have you had issues bringing tropical species a below that 76-80 degree range you referenced? Really appreciate the insight

Sorry, I’ve not kept that species…..

 

[cdw79]

Sea of Cortez can dip to the 60s during the winter. You can easily verify this by looking up dive information for this location where people photograph this fish. It peaks close to what would be considered tropical waters during the summer, but this is a temporary seasonal change. Prolonged temperature increase for temperate species is ill advised if they are a species strictly endemic to this life style. I don't know why you want to personally attack me, I am trying to just help you figure out that this fish is unsuitable for a normal reef tank. The fish's biology won't simply change because of your desires or attacking me personally.

Idk man, read your comments and Jay's comments back to yourself and ask who sounds like they're trying to be helpful. Is correcting minutia helpful? Is implying I'm stupid for not knowing precisely what a waif was being helpful? Is ascribing motivations or intentions to me helpful? It's pretty frustrating to be genuinely looking to learn just to be spoken to be spoken down to repeatedly and being given no benefit of the doubt.

I want to believe you mean it when you say you're trying to be helpful, so I'll take that at face value. If that really is your intention, picking apart people's language or speaking to people like they don't know anything isn't helpful. If anything, it's counterproductive to your intentions, because people will often shut down or ignore you altogether. Then you get people shoving desjardini tangs into 20 gallon cubes because the "tang police" came for them and they dug in their heels. We've both seen that, and that's not an outcome either of us want.

At 15+ years in the hobby, to this day I am always learning more. If I were to purchase this fish, I want to make sure it's in the appropriate conditions. I held off on some of the larger flasher wrasse and tangs, some of my favorite fish in the hobby, for years until I got my 180, for that very reason. I am not trying to fish for answers I want to hear. Like many of us, I was guilty of that very early on in my reefing journey, and I paid the price. I'm not looking to repeat that stressful experience, either for the fish or for myself.

I simply am trying to learn more about the species to understand whether I can provide something that would align with its needs. If I can't, I'll move on to something else, been there done that. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt with your intentions, please grant me the same courtesy.

 

[BloopFish]

Idk man, read your comments and Jay's comments back to yourself and ask who sounds like they're trying to be helpful. Is correcting minutia helpful? Is implying I'm stupid for not knowing precisely what a waif was being helpful? Is ascribing motivations or intentions to me helpful? It's pretty frustrating to be genuinely looking to learn just to be spoken to be spoken down to repeatedly and being given no benefit of the doubt.

I want to believe you mean it when you say you're trying to be helpful, so I'll take that at face value. If that really is your intention, picking apart people's language or speaking to people like they don't know anything isn't helpful. If anything, it's counterproductive to your intentions, because people will often shut down or ignore you altogether. Then you get people shoving desjardini tangs into 20 gallon cubes because the "tang police" came for them and they dug in their heels. We've both seen that, and that's not an outcome either of us want.

At 15+ years in the hobby, to this day I am always learning more. If I were to purchase this fish, I want to make sure it's in the appropriate conditions. I held off on some of the larger flasher wrasse and tangs, some of my favorite fish in the hobby, for years until I got my 180, for that very reason. I am not trying to fish for answers I want to hear. Like many of us, I was guilty of that very early on in my reefing journey, and I paid the price. I'm not looking to repeat that stressful experience, either for the fish or for myself.

I simply am trying to learn more about the species to understand whether I can provide something that would align with its needs. If I can't, I'll move on to something else, been there done that. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt with your intentions, please grant me the same courtesy.

Hey man it's not that deep. Like I said, I'm just trying to be helpful and if you think the world is against you - then thats on you. Life is short man. Let's move on