How long does it take for dead rock to support nitrification?

[RobertK]

I'm having a tank emergency and need to move everything except the sand (rocks, 9 fish, corals) to a temporary tank ASAP. I replaced all my old LR with dry rock from the LFS 10 months ago. I think it was about 30-40 lbs of dry rock in a 65 gallon system. The tank has a mature DSB so there was no cycling period that I noticed. Do you think the rocks can support nitrification in the tank on their own? Not sure if I need to add additional biological filtration for the temporary tank. Thanks for the help.

 

[Miami Reef]

The dry rocks have been in your tank for 10 months? Those are considered very live now.

 

[RobertK]

Thanks Miami. Yes, 10 months. How do I know if thats enough denitrification power to support 9 fish in a 60 gallon tank? My tank currently has a DSB, RDSB, refugium, sump and skimmer to help with filtration. I don't know if the rocks alone will be enough.

 

[Miami Reef]

Thanks Miami. Yes, 10 months. How do I know if thats enough denitrification power to support 9 fish in a 60 gallon tank? My tank currently has a DSB, RDSB, refugium, sump and skimmer to help with filtration. I don't know if the rocks alone will be enough.

Many people float coarse sponge’s in their sump for a few weeks to use as an instant QT biofilter. Nitrifying bacteria grow rapidly. Also, it takes over 10 ppm total ammonia to kill fish; your rocks would very likely drop the ammonia before it even reached 0.50 ppm IMO.

The rocks had more than enough time to be established. I wouldn’t concern myself with ammonia. You can buy the Seachem ammonia badge, and it will tell you very early if ammonia is building up.

Amazon.com

 

[RobertK]

Yep, got one of those. I also got some Amquel Plus in case there is an ammonia spike, and am ready with an up to 50% water change if need be. I don't have time to soak a sponge in the sump for a couple of weeks, gotta take down this tank in the next few days. But I also have a 20 gal QT with a HOB filter, and its filter media are in my sump, so if I don't need to put the fish in the QT I could put the HOB on the 60 for some extra nitrification if ammonia does rise. Thanks for the help, I appreciate it!

 

[Miami Reef]

I don't have time to soak a sponge in the sump for a couple of weeks, gotta take down this tank in the next few days.

The sponge was just to let you know how quick bacteria can seed a surface. Your rocks act the same way as a sponge: a place where bacteria can attach.

 

[Idech]

I wouldn’t add 9 fish at once. I would add 2 at a time, every 3-4 weeks.

If you want to test your tank’s ability to neutralize ammonia, you could use Dr Tim’s ammonia (or pure ammonia). When used to cycle, we want 2 ppm ammonia to be processed in 24 hours. Then we can start adding fish as mentioned above.

Be careful as there used to be a mistake in the instructions on the bottle and you only needed a fraction of what they said to get to 2 ppm. Test it in a bucket first.

 

[redacted_]

I would consider a zeolite reactor if in an emergency. Its a mineral that absorbs ammonia in a pinch. Though I wouldn't suggest using it long term, since you do need to change it often.

You can probably overnight everything you need through amazon

 

[RobertK]

I would consider a zeolite reactor if in an emergency. Its a mineral that absorbs ammonia in a pinch. Though I wouldn't suggest using it long term, since you do need to change it often.

You can probably overnight everything you need through amazon

Thanks for the suggestion. But I thought Amquel did the same thing. Jay Hemdal recommended it in this post. I already ordered a bottle of Amquel Plus on amazon to have on hand in case of emergency.

I wouldn’t add 9 fish at once. I would add 2 at a time, every 3-4 weeks.

If you want to test your tank’s ability to neutralize ammonia, you could use Dr Tim’s ammonia (or pure ammonia). When used to cycle, we want 2 ppm ammonia to be processed in 24 hours. Then we can start adding fish as mentioned above.

Be careful as there used to be a mistake in the instructions on the bottle and you only needed a fraction of what they said to get to 2 ppm. Test it in a bucket first.

Appreciate the advice. I was wondering if I should put the 2 clowns in first and put the others in the QT (which has a biowheel filter) until I'm sure the clowns are doing OK in the 60.

I will try the ammonia test. Is Dr. Tim's the same as the food grade ammonia that Randy recommends for dosing?

 

[Idech]

I was wondering if I should put the 2 clowns in first and put the others in the QT (which has a biowheel filter) until I'm sure the clowns are doing OK in the 60.

You should start with the most peaceful fish first, and end with the most aggressive. But lots of people start with clowns anyway.

I will try the ammonia test. Is Dr. Tim's the same as the food grade ammonia that Randy recommends for dosing?

It’s the same but Dr Tim’s costs a whole lot more just because of his brand. Also it’s a tiny bottle but you don’t need much.

 

[Dan_P]

Thanks for the suggestion. But I thought Amquel did the same thing. Jay Hemdal recommended it in this post. I already ordered a bottle of Amquel Plus on amazon to have on hand in case of emergency.



Appreciate the advice. I was wondering if I should put the 2 clowns in first and put the others in the QT (which has a biowheel filter) until I'm sure the clowns are doing OK in the 60.

I will try the ammonia test. Is Dr. Tim's the same as the food grade ammonia that Randy recommends for dosing?

Amquel is unlikely to work as an ammonia remover.

It would be much better to have a large bottle of Fritz Turbo Start on hand or better yet dose the new system immediately.

The rocks might be sufficient though. Go light on feeding until you see how well they work. Get an ammonia test kit. The QT HOB sounds like something you should place on the temporary aquarium immediately.

 

[Clarkjw2002]

Appreciate the advice. I was wondering if I should put the 2 clowns in first and put the others in the QT (which has a biowheel filter) until I'm sure the clowns are doing OK in the 60.

I would be much more worried about the other fish in your 20 gal QT with the bio-wheel. I'm not sure the person you are replying to here understands your situation. It is a well established tank that can literally collapse from a disintegrating stand within days. Time is not on your side.

When I moved my fish I gave away at least 50% of my rock and the remaining rock didn't miss a beat. Get some ceramic blocks or siporax and put in there with the rock for additional surface area as insurance.

All this testing with ammonia and such is completely unnecessary. And using an ammonia remover may actually inhibit the development of the bacterial population you need to support the fish (again, assuming your very mature rock is not enough).

 

[redacted_]

Thanks for the suggestion. But I thought Amquel did the same thing. Jay Hemdal recommended it in this post. I already ordered a bottle of Amquel Plus on amazon to have on hand in case of emergency.



Appreciate the advice. I was wondering if I should put the 2 clowns in first and put the others in the QT (which has a biowheel filter) until I'm sure the clowns are doing OK in the 60.

I will try the ammonia test. Is Dr. Tim's the same as the food grade ammonia that Randy recommends for dosing?

If Jay Hemdal suggests it, its certainly not a bad one. However, I am not familiar with the product. In solution, there is constantly an equilibrium between very toxic ammonia (NH3) and less toxic ammonium (NH4+). I agree with @Dan_P in that the liquids usually work by shifting the equilibrium towards ammonium (NH4+). Though, I could be wrong about this product since I am not familiar with it. Zeolite is a mineral that will absorb ammonia (usually as ammonium) out of the water column.

Theres no right or wrong answer to what you do though. Ammonia spikes tends to be temporary so using that product might be enough to get over the hump.

However, a tip of caution — the less toxic ammonium is favorable at lower pH. This equilibrium is a sigmoid function, so a slight increase in pH can cause a massive change in the ammonium/ammonia ratio. When tanks crash they are sometimes at a very low pH so the fish seem fine. However, if you do a small water change without removing a lot of ammonia, you can raise the pH just enough to convert most of the ammonium into the toxic ammonia and kill all your fish. It is usually not the ppm that kills, but rather a combination of pH and ppm. For example, if you're at 1ppm, a 75% water change still leaves you at a concerning 0.25ppm, which can cause problems even at modest pH. This is why I try and aim for 100% water changes. Practically all nitrifying bacteria are in your rocks anyways.

 

[Troylee]

I'm having a tank emergency and need to move everything except the sand (rocks, 9 fish, corals) to a temporary tank ASAP. I replaced all my old LR with dry rock from the LFS 10 months ago. I think it was about 30-40 lbs of dry rock in a 65 gallon system. The tank has a mature DSB so there was no cycling period that I noticed. Do you think the rocks can support nitrification in the tank on their own? Not sure if I need to add additional biological filtration for the temporary tank. Thanks for the help.

What are the 9 fish? Does the tank with the current 30-40 pounds of rock have any bioload in it currently? Depending on coral load they will strive and take up ammonia also! I think you’re fine personally

 

[RobertK]

Thanks guys. I'm also concerned about putting so many fish in a 20 gallon tank with just a HOB filter. I've only used that filter for 1 or 2 fish at a time in the past, so I don't know how many fish it can support.

The 9 fish are: 1 yellow tang, 1 pavo damsel, 2 ocellaris clowns, 2 royal gramma, 3 dwarf angels. They are in the tank with the 30-40 lbs of rock, along with a bunch of LPS and soft corals including several large colonies.

The HOB filter has a biowheel and a separate filter cartridge containinig biomedia, which have been living in my sump when not in use for a long time, so should be effective right away. I can either put the HOB filter on the Q tank for some of the fish, and put a few fish in the 60 with the rocks and corals, or I can put the HOB on the 60 for some extra biofiltration and put all the fish in the 60 right away. I did order a 2nd HOB filter but it will take time to cycle and I need to do this transfer in the next few days.

 

[Jared Bryant]

Make up extra saltwater. Frequent water changes will be a good idea since this is temporary.

 

[RobertK]

Make up extra saltwater. Frequent water changes will be a good idea since this is temporary.

Definitely planning on that. But my mixing station is a 30 gallon Brute, so the most I can do is a 50% change.

 

[RobertK]

I also have a small reactor available for use, could put carbon, GFO or zeo in it...

 

[Troylee]

I also have a small reactor available for use, could put carbon, GFO or zeo in it...

What if anything has been in the tank with 30 pounds of rock? If nothing were you at least ghost feeding the tank to cycle the rock?

 

[RobertK]

What if anything has been in the tank with 30 pounds of rock? If nothing were you at least ghost feeding the tank to cycle the rock?

The 30 lbs of dry rock was added to my reef tank 10 months ago to replace a bunch of old aiptaisia infested LR. It is in there with all the fish and corals. The fish are fed twice daily. The tank has a DSB, sump, skimmer and refugium but all that will be taken down when I transfer the rocks fish and corals to a temporary 60 gal tank this weekend.