How Much Redundancy Do Controllers Add?

[sundog101]

I’ve been debating getting an apex for a while, but I’m not sure how much benefit it would add. In my case, I have individual controllers for most things (temp, ato, etc). So I’m wondering… would adding an apex or other tank controller on top of that just create more points of failure? For example, say my ranco controller is working fine, but the apex temp probe malfunctions causing the apex to cut power to the ranco and thus the heaters. Or say I add a backup float switch (or salinity probe) in my sump which malfunctions and incorrectly shuts down the ato causing the return to run dry. I get the above outcomes are better than a cooked tank or flooded floor, but if I were away for a while it could still be a problem.

I guess I’m trying to say… does layering backups like this actually cause a greater chance of failure? Maybe someone with more engineering knowledge than myself could chime in. Thanks!!

 

[SuncrestReef]

With my Apex, I implement redundancy with additional sensors and alarm programming alerting me if two sensors disagree. If you have two temperature probes and one is way off compared to the other, then there's obviously an issue that needs to be investigated. Likewise, if my ATO sensor thinks the water level is fine, but my additional float sensor says the return chamber level is low, I get an alert. Lastly, I configure the Fallback setting on each output to ensure the devices are in a safe state in the event the Apex is disconnected or out of communications. For example, I have an Inkbird heater controller plugged into my EnergyBar, with the Apex controlling the heaters based on the Apex primary temperature probe, but if the Apex ever locks up or is offline, the InkBird still has power due to the Fallback ON setting so it continues to control the temperature.

If you decide to get an Apex, take a look at my series of Apex tutorials to get the most out of your setup:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/authors/suncrestreef.93940/

 

[Quietman]

I debated for quite a bit on getting Apex as couldn't justify cost along the lines you state. I set up equipment that already had controllers and set up my redundancy there and in design.

I did want some type of monitoring and alarm/notification system though. Had a chance to get an simple Apex without a power bar and only temp and switch input. Half the cost and did exactly what I wanted. I used the Apex just to monitor and never to control critical systems and to send alerts.

In this way it is not single point of failure and does add redundancy.

I did add pH module and did end up buying the cheap old style power bar for non critical or back up equipment. Such as extra heater (main control is Ranco) or extra pump. My primary equipment is still on my other manually switched power bar.

 

[n2585722]

If you are just interested in monitoring at this time but want the ability to control if you want to later you might want to check this out. It comes with a temp probe, pH probe and a point leak detector. That will fill all the inputs on this controller, but the way you expand is add another controller and start a collective. This controller will control outputs if you purchace the wifi power strips. So the controller itself is a full controller. It is just that this package does not come with an output device. It will send push alerts on any device you install the app on. It can also send emails.

https://www.coralvue.com/hydros-control-x3-monitor-pack

 

[vetteguy53081]

Cant do without one. Like having a butler to monitor lights, heater, temp , ph and more

 

[MR BACKHAND]

Before Apex I was waking up at night and stressed thinking something was wrong. Now with Apex I sleep a lot better.

 

[MNFish]

I wish the apex was more polished.
I bought into monitoring the power outlets but only a couple of my outlets will read power usage, this looks to be a known problem but has not been fixed. I ran into problems setting mine up that came back with solutions on Google but had been around for a long time but never fixed. It is a great idea but not nearly as polished as it should be for how long it has been around in my opinion.

I do like the salinity monitoring and how I can now connect my sicce pumps, but I use kessil lights so apex does not help at all with that. I use the apex as my only temp control but my sicce pumps will also take temp and email if out of range as well.

I guess what I am trying to say if you already have controllers that work it may not make sense to buy one that may not work as good or better. Apex has some cool features but for me it is more of a toy then a security policy or a necessity.

 

[SuncrestReef]

I wish the apex was more polished.
I bought into monitoring the power outlets but only a couple of my outlets will read power usage, this looks to be a known problem but has not been fixed. I ran into problems setting mine up that came back with solutions on Google but had been around for a long time but never fixed. It is a great idea but not nearly as polished as it should be for how long it has been around in my opinion.

I do like the salinity monitoring and how I can now connect my sicce pumps, but I use kessil lights so apex does not help at all with that. I use the apex as my only temp control but my sicce pumps will also take temp and email if out of range as well.

I guess what I am trying to say if you already have controllers that work it may not make sense to buy one that may not work as good or better. Apex has some cool features but for me it is more of a toy then a security policy or a necessity.

Just curious...What are you trying to monitor the power usage on but it's not working? I know some devices simply draw so little power that it doesn't register on the EB832. But there is a known condition where many outputs won't report power usage correctly for any device, but it can be fixed by resetting the EB832's power monitor by issuing a command through your computer. Let me know if you want instructions for that.

 

[MNFish]

Just curious...What are you trying to monitor the power usage on but it's not working? I know some devices simply draw so little power that it doesn't register on the EB832. But there is a known condition where many outputs won't report power usage correctly for any device, but it can be fixed by resetting the EB832's power monitor by issuing a command through your computer. Let me know if you want instructions for that.

Yes I think the instructions are what I need I only get power reading for my return pump and heater, my skimmer, and wave pumps and algea light all just say 0. To be honest I kind of gave up on it after I found multiple complaints about it online, but it would be nice to know if something stopped drawing power or used way more all the sudden than it should. Thank you!

 

[SuncrestReef]

Yes I think the instructions are what I need I only get power reading for my return pump and heater, my skimmer, and wave pumps and algea light all just say 0. To be honest I kind of gave up on it after I found multiple complaints about it online, but it would be nice to know if something stopped drawing power or used way more all the sudden than it should. Thank you!

Here are the instructions. It requires you to use Telnet from your computer or download a Telnet app for your phone or tablet.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/apex-832-not-reporting-watts-or-amps.835978/post-9037607

 

[ariellemermaid]

In short: as much redundancy as you want to implement and which lets you sleep at night. Mine is pretty basic right now for temp: 1) my eheim is set so it doesn’t heat above 84 or so, 2) my ink bird controls the temperature, 3) apex monitors for low or high temps and can shut off the outlet. So just think through all the things that can go wrong: heater will eventually die, apex will detect that. It could fail in the on position, inkbird backs that up. If two of those things fail (inkbird fails to turn off or say the temp probe falls out of the tank) the Apex backs that up. IMO 2 failsafes are necessary, not just one. And one is definitely not enough for me. Lots of people have had inkbirds fail; nothing works forever.

It’s so much more than that though. Apex is also a backup against human error. Do you test your tank as much as you should to detect issues? I have a Trident and pH probe at work 24/7. I can set a water change mode to turn off everything I want and a failsafe after 60 minutes to turn everything back on in case I forget after (lots of reefers have made this mistake). Recently I had problems dialing in my non-DOS doser before vacation. So I was able to use the Apex to just completely shut on/off the doser from 1000’s of miles away even without the DOS.

But, Apex isn’t the only game in town and what I hate about it is that it’s insanely expensive compared to the cost of the tech. It’s like an iPhone vs. android. No power bar should cost $280! No controller should cost $800! No 2 head pump should cost $300 each!

So it’s definitely possible to accomplish a lot of the same functions more cost effectively. Coral vue is one option. However if I didn’t want to spend the money for Apex I would go reefpi (just the cost of a raspberry pi) plus a robotank ($200) power bar + controller. You do need to buy the probes you want also. For another $63 you can buy a Jebao 4 head slave doser and control each pump individually. Doing it this way takes a lot of the DIY out while providing 90% of the functionality at a small fraction of the cost. It won’t be as polished and come with an app, but can be accessed remotely. You also definitely need patience, DIY, and computer skills to get everything working the way you want, but I think from a price:functionality standpoint it’s a much better value, and more flexible. You’re not forever tied to way overpriced add on’s either.

 

[BillFish Coral Lover]

Literalky everything is a point of failure over time.

At my age and with my health conditions, I see the controller and add-ons for my upcoming tank as a necessity to remain in the hobby.

So, they'd better work!

 

[CNDReef]

As Bill said. Everything that you add is another point of failure. Only you can decide if the cost is worth it or not but to be redundant you’ll need a back up Apex in case it fails as well lol

 

[ariellemermaid]

As Bill said. Everything that you add is another point of failure. Only you can decide if the cost is worth it or not but to be redundant you’ll need a back up Apex in case it fails as well lol

That’s a little extreme. I definitely wouldn’t use the apex alone as a temperature controller. It’s just a backup to the actual controller. It’s true that anything can fail. Starting with electricity. But I have a backup for that too ;).

I think of the Apex more as a monitor than anything else. If it fails to say shut off the temperature controller it means something else has already gone wrong and now this would be a second thing. Sure the power strip could melt down and overload, but that could happen with any power strip, yet we have to plug our devices into something…. So I really don’t see the controller as a point of failure, it’s a monitor for other failures that can also intervene if a problem is detected. But as with everything it depends how you use it.