How To Remove Copper From DT

[Elgringodiablo]

I'd think that carbonate would work better that bicarb. It's pretty easy to get carbonate out of bicarb though.
Im wondering if @Randy Holmes-Farley or any other chemistry experts on here have any thoughts about it.
Theoretically it should work, but a reef tank complicates the chemistry and would want to be sure that none of the formed salts are toxic or harmful.

Interestingly enough, I had already ordered a pound of food grade calcium carbonate (ground limestone) to use as a DIY KZ Coral Snow replacement. I am not concerned about any negative chemistry affects from adding it, after a bit of reading it sounds pretty harmless. I will let you guys know if that has any noticeable impact on my Cu levels.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

May have to put this experiment on hold... Down to 0.25 and noticed a couple fish flashing... I took the copper levels to 1.65-1.8 for 30 days... I think I had one day that it might have dipped to 1.48 and I may have stopped treatment 4-5 hours before the 3o day mark... ***...

 

[Elgringodiablo]

Maybe I am just being paranoid. Haven’t noticed anymore flashing. Got two black mollies in an acclimation box. Pressing onward.

Dosed 1/2 tsp of food grade calcium carbonate powder to 100g. Will let you know if it has a noticeable impact.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

Maybe I am just being paranoid. Haven’t noticed anymore flashing. Got two black mollies in an acclimation box. Pressing onward.

Dosed 1/2 tsp of food grade calcium carbonate powder to 100g. Will let you know if it has a noticeable impact.

Didn't seem to make a difference when I tested about 6-8 hours later. Cu was down from 0.26 to 0.25, really within the margin of error for the Hanna Checker. I went ahead and dosed another 1/2 tsp and will test again tomorrow before I switch out media and add new polyfilter.

 

[Toofattofish]

Perhaps it doesn't work as well with chelated copper or maybe has to do with the pH. Or maybe considering that you have rock in the tank, there's already a compound made of calcium and carbonate in the tank (didn't realize you had rock in the tank until I reread thread). Either way interested in what happens when you add more.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

Down to 0.21 this morning, so it may help. Probably better to test in a controlled environment with just a skimmer and a powerhead.

 

[Toofattofish]

What else are you running at this point?
.25 to .21 doesn't sound like much but that's still ~15% copper reduction in a short time (give or take considering margin of error) which seems pretty significant.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

Polyfilter that was already exhausted and Rox0.8 GAC. So not a truly scientific test, but the Cu had sat at 0.25-0.26 for a couple days prior.

If someone really wants to test it, best bet is to do so in a small empty tank with Cu at 2.00, a powerhead and a small skimmer for removal. Even better, two small tanks with identical setup, control vs exposed.

 

[Toofattofish]

The other thing I wonder is if the copper carbonate precipitates somewhere and if that needs to be removed (which I'd do if it was visible in the DT, but my guess is there isn't enough of it to be visible), but it sounds like it's working.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

Yeah, so I am not so sure the Calcium Carbonate powder was successful. My Cu went back up to about 0.36, was previously around 0.25ish. I pulled my canister of Cupisorb (which may be totally useless on chelated copper, jury is still out), replaced it with a fresh canister of Red Sea Reef Spec Carbon (got it dirt cheap on Fosters and Smith, figured it was worth testing out) and replaced my polyfilter. Checked this morning and now down to 0.13.

Probably swap out my old carbon (running two BRS cartridges of it now) and do another 20% WC. Once I am down to 0.01 or 0.02 I will dose Triton Detox again to see if that helps getting any of the stragglers. Once I test 0.00 for a week or so, I will send an ICP test to Triton and see if I have any detectible copper showing up. I am honestly not super worried about <10ppb, as I am pretty sure trace amounts already make it into our systems via additives, salt mix, etc.

@4FordFamily - You ever ICP test after the removal process? If so, any detectible Cu coming up or totally clear?

 

[4FordFamily]

Yeah, so I am not so sure the Calcium Carbonate powder was successful. My Cu went back up to about 0.36, was previously around 0.25ish. I pulled my canister of Cupisorb (which may be totally useless on chelated copper, jury is still out), replaced it with a fresh canister of Red Sea Reef Spec Carbon (got it dirt cheap on Fosters and Smith, figured it was worth testing out) and replaced my polyfilter. Checked this morning and now down to 0.13.

Probably swap out my old carbon (running two BRS cartridges of it now) and do another 20% WC. Once I am down to 0.01 or 0.02 I will dose Triton Detox again to see if that helps getting any of the stragglers. Once I test 0.00 for a week or so, I will send an ICP test to Triton and see if I have any detectible copper showing up. I am honestly not super worried about <10ppb, as I am pretty sure trace amounts already make it into our systems via additives, salt mix, etc.

@4FordFamily - You ever ICP test after the removal process? If so, any detectible Cu coming up or totally clear?

I actually didn’t test much outside of the cheap copper tests, which read as close to zero as I could tell. My coral, inverts (even clams) thrive!

 

[kevsqn]

I would also like to second that cuprisorb is 100% useless for me(and probably carbon too, and i have a good amount of carbon).its in a reactor together with AF carbon. last week i tested 0.31. after 1 week its still 0.31.
@Elgringodiablo how big is your tank and how many polyfilter pads have you already used?
because im thinking im going to start using poly pads once i reach 0.15.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

I would also like to second that cuprisorb is 100% useless for me(and probably carbon too, and i have a good amount of carbon).its in a reactor together with AF carbon. last week i tested 0.31. after 1 week its still 0.31.
@Elgringodiablo how big is your tank and how many polyfilter pads have you already used?
because im thinking im going to start using poly pads once i reach 0.15.

I have a Red Sea Reefer 450, so roughly 100 gallons of water. I left all my rock in, since it was going to be a nightmare to dismantle, so I expect it to take me longer than average to remove the copper. I have gone through about five 4x8 polyfilter pads. I just cut them in half and put the in the top of my filter socks. I feel like carbon makes a difference, but only when it's new and needs to be swapped out a lot. Obviously big water changes work well when the levels are still very high.

 

[kevsqn]

I have a Red Sea Reefer 450, so roughly 100 gallons of water. I left all my rock in, since it was going to be a nightmare to dismantle, so I expect it to take me longer than average to remove the copper. I have gone through about five 4x8 polyfilter pads. I just cut them in half and put the in the top of my filter socks. I feel like carbon makes a difference, but only when it's new and needs to be swapped out a lot. Obviously big water changes work well when the levels are still very high.

mine is about 240 gallons. so i probably have double the dose of what you dosed. i also left everything in. maybe i should try different brand of carbon.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

mine is about 240 gallons. so i probably have double the dose of what you dosed. i also left everything in. maybe i should try different brand of carbon.

Worth a try. Was that new carbon when it didn't move the needle?

So far from what I am seeing with Chelated Copper:
- Cupisorb: Doesn't work, or works very slowly
- Water Changes: Works but takes a lot of them
- Carbon: May or may not work, I'm inclined to say it helps
- Triton Detox: Is a chelating agent, so only really makes a difference with free copper, won't likely make a major impact, but might be a beneficial last step
- Poly Filter: Definitely works, but takes a lot and I've heard it elevates your systems barium levels (which is removable via GFO I believe)
- Calcium Carbonate: Not sure what effect it has at this point

 

[kevsqn]

Worth a try. Was that new carbon when it didn't move the needle?

So far from what I am seeing with Chelated Copper:
- Cupisorb: Doesn't work, or works very slowly
- Water Changes: Works but takes a lot of them
- Carbon: May or may not work, I'm inclined to say it helps
- Triton Detox: Is a chelating agent, so only really makes a difference with free copper, won't likely make a major impact, but might be a beneficial last step
- Poly Filter: Definitely works, but takes a lot and I've heard it elevates your systems barium levels (which is removable via GFO I believe)
- Calcium Carbonate: Not sure what effect it has at this point

Yup . It was brand new carbon and cuprisorb and the reading disnt budge

 

[4FordFamily]

I would also like to second that cuprisorb is 100% useless for me(and probably carbon too, and i have a good amount of carbon).its in a reactor together with AF carbon. last week i tested 0.31. after 1 week its still 0.31.
@Elgringodiablo how big is your tank and how many polyfilter pads have you already used?
because im thinking im going to start using poly pads once i reach 0.15.

It worked great with me with polyfiber pads on several occasions. Strange!

 

[Elgringodiablo]

It worked great with me with polyfiber pads on several occasions. Strange!

Interesting. I've got the Cupisorb in one of those BRS DI Resin cartridges in my BRS media reactor. Color doesn't seem to be changing and I don't notice much of a downtick after running it for 24 hours. I know it's designed to remove ionic copper and wonder if it has problems capturing the chelated copper for some reason.

Nonetheless, I'm down from 1.75ppm to 0.18ppm in three weeks without any huge water changes or disposing of my rocks. I expect it to take me another couple of weeks to get that last 180ppb out.

 

[Halal Hotdog]

First of all, best practice is to NEVER dose copper in a display tank, and to use a quarantine tank. It is much easier and safer. Copper in a DT can heavily dampen your nitrogen cycle in your tank, and will leach in to your rock, substrate, and equipment. As a result, the amount of copper you'll need to dose will be astronomically higher in a DT. You may well have ammonia issues because it hinders your nitrogen cycles to varying degrees for a bit. It also makes your copper levels volitile (due to leaching) which is not conducive for an effective 30 day treatment with copper-- as the levels cannot ever dip below 2PPM for chelated copper (such as coppersafe, copperaid, and copper power) or .5PPM (.6 is what I use) for ionic copper (such as cupramine). If the levels do drop below this threshold at any point, you restart your 30 day clock. This can take weeks to stabilize, and subjects your fish to more time in copper than need be. Some fish handle it fine, others may struggle.

So, now that you've been advised NOT to use copper in a DT, here's how I have successfully removed it 5-6 times over the years, succcessfully. My 180 reef has run through copper treatments 3 times over the years and housed clams, inverts, coral, etc without issue afterward.

This works for all types of copper. Polyfiber pads remove chelated copper better, cuprisorb removes ionic copper faster. I use all three regardless.

I use poly fiber pads, cuprisorb, and carbon in conjunction with MASSIVE water changes. After two massive water changes I replace all of the media and let it run a week with all new cuprisorb, carbon, and polyfiber pads and test after a full week. The process takes about two weeks in my experience. Here's how I do it:

Before Treatment:
Remove all rock, coral, and inverts you wish to keep. You can leave some rock for structure but PVC as a replacement is more advisable. I've always left some rock in the tank for structure, say 10-20% of what was there originally. This will work if you don't remove most or all rock but it increases your chances of the removal being more difficult. Remove all carbon, media, phosban, filter pads, seeding sponges (I keep one in sump for seeding new tanks) before dosing copper. Buy an ammonia alert badge by seachem to monitor ammonia, as most tests will test false positives in copper. You can skim for the duration of treatment, or at least I do.

Before Copper Removal:
Remove most/all rock used in the copper treatment. Sand (if applicable) can stay. Equipment and everything else is fine.

Step 1) giant water change (85-90%)
Step 2) add cuprisorb, carbon, and pokyfiber pads
Step 3) replace poly fiber pad after 3-4 days. I run it attached to powerhead for max exposure/flow
Step 4) wait a week, giant water change again.
Step 5) replace all media, wait another week
Step 6) giant water change again. Leave media in for 1-2 more weeks.
Step 7) Test after one week. If not zero, repeat large water change and replace all media.
Step 8) Don't add coral or inverts back until after 3 consecutive days testing twice per day of 0 copper readings. I would recommend using more than one brand of copper test to confirm.

I've done this several times and had the coral back in 2-4 weeks. Test several times over a period of a few days to be sure before adding inverts/coral.

Again, don't go through all of this aggravation. Get a quarantine. This is a pain in the neck and a lot of unnecessary work and risk you need not take in 99/100 cases. Use a hospital tank/QT, instead.

Interesting, so leaving the sand in was not an issue?

 

[kevsqn]

i just did a 25% water change and somehow the reading jumped to 0.35(previously 0.31).
i also added 2 poly pads. some AquaForest zeomix(zeolites) which is said to remove some heavy metals. hope this works in reducing some copper
Although I cant really tell if its going to help since i added 2 poly pads at the same time.