How to use antibiotics ?

[Aussie_Saltwater]

Hi team,

5 months ago I saved a purple tang (charlie) with the use of Metronidazole. I took Charlie to a vet who diagnosed him swim bladder.

Sadly I have just had my first death. My Klein butterflyfish died from what I suspect is some type of external bacterial infection.

Charlie was sick for about a 2 weeks and was able to make a full recovery with the use of metro. The klein's butterfly died after first showing symptoms 24 hours earlier. I tired Metronidazole and Praziquantel with no success.

After some research I learnt that there are gram positive and gram negative bacteria along with aerobic and non aerobic bacteria plus I assume additional variables.

My question is there a combination of antibiotics that can be used to cover all types of bacteria ?

Also please rest assured I will do everything I can to find out exactly what went wrong. This fish went downhill so fast. The only abnormalities I can find on the fish is a large grey mark on its head. The symptoms I observed is that the fish was struggling to swim and slightly bent to one side. Not eating than Just laying on its side.

Water parameters all fine. Purple tang and Bicolour Angel behaving as normal and look healthy. No bullying. Tank size 180G FOWLR.

Any response is much appreciated.

Kind regards.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi team,

5 months ago I saved a purple tang (charlie) with the use of Metronidazole. I took Charlie to a vet who diagnosed him swim bladder.

Sadly I have just had my first death. My Klein butterflyfish died from what I suspect is some type of external bacterial infection.

Charlie was sick for about a 2 weeks and was able to make a full recovery with the use of metro. The klein's butterfly died after first showing symptoms 24 hours earlier. I tired Metronidazole and Praziquantel with no success.

After some research I learnt that there are gram positive and gram negative bacteria along with aerobic and non aerobic bacteria plus I assume additional variables.

My question is there a combination of antibiotics that can be used to cover all types of bacteria ?

Also please rest assured I will do everything I can to find out exactly what went wrong. This fish went downhill so fast. The only abnormalities I can find on the fish is a large grey mark on its head. The symptoms I observed is that the fish was struggling to swim and slightly bent to one side. Not eating than Just laying on its side.

Water parameters all fine. Purple tang and Bicolour Angel behaving as normal and look healthy. No bullying. Tank size 180G FOWLR.

Any response is much appreciated.

Kind regards.

I dont and dont advise mixing meds which can offer breakdown of one med and/or cause adverse effects.
Myacin based meds are best for bacteria such as Seachem Kanaplex (kanamyacin) and Seachem Neoplex (neomyacin). Thy are effective when applied properly and water is kept at optimum.
Many jump to Metroplex which MUST be used precisely by weight and does make fish food taste bitter. The grey mark can be a result of water quality, stress, injury and even aggression but a pic or two under bright white light intensity, no blue will often offer clues.
Is fish breathing normal or labored?

 

[Aussie_Saltwater]

I dont and dont advise mixing meds which can offer breakdown of one med and/or cause adverse effects.
Myacin based meds are best for bacteria such as Seachem Kanaplex (kanamyacin) and Seachem Neoplex (neomyacin). Thy are effective when applied properly and water is kept at optimum.
Many jump to Metroplex which MUST be used precisely by weight and does make fish food taste bitter. The grey mark can be a result of water quality, stress, injury and even aggression but a pic or two under bright white light intensity, no blue will often offer clues.
Is fish breathing normal or labored?

The breathing was labored, it was also frequently bumping into rocks and the glass. Perhaps this is where the grey mark came from.

literally within a maximum of 24 hours this fish appeared to go from behaving normally to lying on its side and dying.

Definitely no white dots. I did dose praziquantel for flukes and gill worms so a Possibility but I can't see any visual signs.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi team,

5 months ago I saved a purple tang (charlie) with the use of Metronidazole. I took Charlie to a vet who diagnosed him swim bladder.

Sadly I have just had my first death. My Klein butterflyfish died from what I suspect is some type of external bacterial infection.

Charlie was sick for about a 2 weeks and was able to make a full recovery with the use of metro. The klein's butterfly died after first showing symptoms 24 hours earlier. I tired Metronidazole and Praziquantel with no success.

After some research I learnt that there are gram positive and gram negative bacteria along with aerobic and non aerobic bacteria plus I assume additional variables.

My question is there a combination of antibiotics that can be used to cover all types of bacteria ?

Also please rest assured I will do everything I can to find out exactly what went wrong. This fish went downhill so fast. The only abnormalities I can find on the fish is a large grey mark on its head. The symptoms I observed is that the fish was struggling to swim and slightly bent to one side. Not eating than Just laying on its side.

Water parameters all fine. Purple tang and Bicolour Angel behaving as normal and look healthy. No bullying. Tank size 180G FOWLR.

Any response is much appreciated.

Kind regards.

Primary external bacterial infections are exceedingly rare. There needs to be some instigator for the infection, like a break in the skin.

The majority of external secondary bacterial infections in fish are gram negative aerobic types. You would select an antibiotic that has sensitivity towards those types. Kanaplex or Neoplex for example.

Internal bacterial infections are a different story and need to be treated orally.

 

[vetteguy53081]

The breathing was labored, it was also frequently bumping into rocks and the glass. Perhaps this is where the grey mark came from.

literally within a maximum of 24 hours this fish appeared to go from behaving normally to lying on its side and dying.

Definitely no white dots. I did dose praziquantel for flukes and gill worms so a Possibility but I can't see any visual signs.

you generally wont see visual signs of flukes unless other microscope. Sounds like the fish may be moribund and a video of fish would be helpful

 

[Aussie_Saltwater]

you generally wont see visual signs of flukes unless other microscope. Sounds like the fish may be moribund and a video of fish would be helpful

Fish already passed away unfortunately.

After the fish passed I did put it in a clear container of freshwater to see if any flukes came off, couldn't see anything.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Fish already passed away unfortunately.

After the fish passed I did put it in a clear container of freshwater to see if any flukes came off, couldn't see anything.

Sorry to hear. When moribund, survival chances are greatly diminished.

 

[Aussie_Saltwater]

Sorry to hear. When moribund, survival chances are greatly diminished.

Primary external bacterial infections are exceedingly rare. There needs to be some instigator for the infection, like a break in the skin.

The majority of external secondary bacterial infections in fish are gram negative aerobic types. You would select an antibiotic that has sensitivity towards those types. Kanaplex or Neoplex for example.

Internal bacterial infections are a different story and need to be treated orally.

I found a powder online called general trio consisting of Metronidazole,kanamycin and Nitrofurazone. Claims to cover a complete spectrum of bacterial infections.

I wouldn't use the powder but dose individually. Would these 3 work safely and effectively together ?

I am trying to build a medicine cabinet to cover all possible scenarios. In Australia it can be hard to get certain medications. So I either have to order online from the USA or spend $400 to get it from the vet like I did with the metro.

I currently have copper and Praziquantel and I am trying to get Formalin. This should cover all none bacterial infections ?

 

[MnFish1]

Hi team,

5 months ago I saved a purple tang (charlie) with the use of Metronidazole. I took Charlie to a vet who diagnosed him swim bladder.

Sadly I have just had my first death. My Klein butterflyfish died from what I suspect is some type of external bacterial infection.

Charlie was sick for about a 2 weeks and was able to make a full recovery with the use of metro. The klein's butterfly died after first showing symptoms 24 hours earlier. I tired Metronidazole and Praziquantel with no success.

After some research I learnt that there are gram positive and gram negative bacteria along with aerobic and non aerobic bacteria plus I assume additional variables.

My question is there a combination of antibiotics that can be used to cover all types of bacteria ?

Also please rest assured I will do everything I can to find out exactly what went wrong. This fish went downhill so fast. The only abnormalities I can find on the fish is a large grey mark on its head. The symptoms I observed is that the fish was struggling to swim and slightly bent to one side. Not eating than Just laying on its side.

Water parameters all fine. Purple tang and Bicolour Angel behaving as normal and look healthy. No bullying. Tank size 180G FOWLR.

Any response is much appreciated.

Kind regards.

First - it's impossible to diagnose what happened to the butterfly - nor is it possible to be sure that metronidazole cured Charlie. But - will take your word for it... The short answer is 'no' there is no combination of antibiotics you can use that will kill everything (actually there probably is - but it would literally mess up your tank)

There are indeed gram negative and gram positive bacteria. Additionally each of these have anaerobic (not requiring O2) an aerobic (requiring O2). To make it more confusing there are also acid fast bacteria, as well as other types of organisms that cause disease.

The short answer - Each medication has a risk, and adding more than one at a time has a multiple risks. 1. More antibiotic resistance (not good in general for society). 2. More risk of side effects. 3. Though it may not make sense - some antibiotics in combination actually prevent the other from working properly.

So there is no magic answer. Except to say, that most infections in marine fish are 'gram negative aerobic' infections. Medications like Kanamycin, neomycin etc are often recommended. Maracyn II seems to work well for eye infections..

I want you to think back to the actual issue with your tank - and consider the fact that you might have had a parasitic (protozoal) disease, as compared to bacteria (on your butterfly especially) - since bacterial infections do not tend to kill overnight - as velvet or uronema can.

The metronidazole may have helped the potential swim bladder issue - but time also often resolves this issue with no antibiotics.

EDIT - sorry for repeating some of jay's and vetteguys recommendations - I didn't see them. I would not use that combination of 3 antibiotics for the reasons already discussed - and FWIW - they will also not kill all bacterial illness

 

[Aussie_Saltwater]

Team if my butterflyfish died of Velvet would it not be effecting my purple tang and Bicolour Angel by now ?

Everything seems to be going fine so far.

For what it's worth I feed very heavy. This is a 180 gallon FOWLR, large roller matt turned daily, large skimmer, lots of live rock in display, 3 large marine pure blocks in sump, carbon. Nitrates never go above 20. I feed 2 feedings of New life spectrum and 1-2 feedings of frozen food (squid,mysis,krill, coppepods) plus I put some clams and Nori in. Wondering if the heavy feeding is causing some type of internal issues ?

 

[KrisReef]

In tanks with new fish adding large quantities of possibly “strange” food items to hungry fish is probably not the best way to proceed. I find that feeding small portions two or three times a day (to ensure that they are not starving) while not gorging like a holiday meal is advisable until I understand how much they need and until they understand that feeding is regularly done in the tank and that they don’t need to compete for food like they did in the wild

 

[Aussie_Saltwater]

Team thanks for all the help.

Plan is I am going to empty and clean quarantine tank. Fill with new SW. Filtration will be simple internal sponge filter and some Fluval biomax.

Medicine I either have or will try and get

Copper
Praziquantel
METRONIDAZOLE
KANAPLEX
Eurthymcyn
Formalin

Quarantine is 40 gallon but I don't intend to fill.

Any feedback much appreciated.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Team thanks for all the help.

Plan is I am going to empty and clean quarantine tank. Fill with new SW. Filtration will be simple internal sponge filter and some Fluval biomax.

Medicine I either have or will try and get

Copper
Praziquantel
METRONIDAZOLE
KANAPLEX
Eurthymcyn
Formalin

Quarantine is 40 gallon but I don't intend to fill.

Any feedback much appreciated.

I don't use antibiotics during quarantine unless there are clear signs of a bacterial infection. Formalin is toxic to people, and I've stopped using that. Metronidazole overlaps in activity with copper and it just isn't effective. I only use it orally against flagellate protozoans. Copper + Praziquantel stops the vast majority of fish ectoparasites. Here is my current quarantine process:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/

 

[Aussie_Saltwater]

I don't use antibiotics during quarantine unless there are clear signs of a bacterial infection. Formalin is toxic to people, and I've stopped using that. Metronidazole overlaps in activity with copper and it just isn't effective. I only use it orally against flagellate protozoans. Copper + Praziquantel stops the vast majority of fish ectoparasites. Here is my current quarantine process:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/

Thanks for this response Jay, I already read and plan on following your quarantine process.

The antibiotics is in the advent that I need to treat a sick fish rather than quarantine.

I wasn't going to use Formalin accept in the event I got a School of green chromis or a fish came down with Brooke or Uronema, for which my understanding Formalin is the only treatment ?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for this response Jay, I already read and plan on following your quarantine process.

The antibiotics is in the advent that I need to treat a sick fish rather than quarantine.

I wasn't going to use Formalin accept in the event I got a School of green chromis or a fish came down with Brooke or Uronema, for which my understanding Formalin is the only treatment ?

Formalin is the best medication for Brooklynella, but despite what you’ll read on some sites, it will NOT treat inter cellular Uronema (the type that affects green chromis). No bath treatment works for that, as the parasite lives in the muscle tissue, you only see the external lesion when it’s too late to treat anyway.