How would you feel if I tore it all down?

[reeferfoxx]

Are you suggesting that the success that Rev is seeing could be caused by something other than Vibrant?

Listen, if vibrant altered the tanks environment so much so to where the dino receded, I can't I argue that it didn't do something but our perception of what is successful needs to be revamped.

It directly attacks algae, it doesn't just deprive it of nutrients.

Dinos aren't an algae.

I don't have any dino's readily available to me but I would love to see some testing done along these lines. Take some dino's and divide it up between a few containers. Add a few drops of each of these products and take a look to see what happens. Preferably under a microscope. Maybe we can get a volunteer?

This wouldn't be difficult to do and i'm sure its been done as encysting dinos have been recorded on the major dino thread.

I wouldn't call GFO a failure at reducing phosphates because phosphates didn't stay low once I stopped using it. I wouldn't call Chemiclean ineffective at clearing cyano just because it will come back several weeks later if you don't change your husbandry practices. It all depends on the expectations involved.

These are tools with unforgiving results on bacteria, micro fauna, tank parameters, O2, etc etc. I would say its no different than vibrant.

 

[Brew12]

Listen, if vibrant altered the tanks environment so much so to where the dino receded, I can't I argue that it didn't do something but our perception of what is successful needs to be revamped.

I'm not in on Vibrant's trade secrets but I doubt that it is fundamentally changing the tanks environment. It seems that you feel Vibrant works by nutrient deprivation and that isn't the main process through which it works. If it were, dosing nitrates and phosphates wouldn't be recommended during its use.
If I am a hobbyist looking for help with dino's, I would be thrilled with a product that knocks the dino's back while I worked to improve biodiversity to allow something to outcompete the dino's.

Dinos aren't an algae.

They are not, but some strains have many similar characteristics to algae which could allow a direct attack by Vibrant.

This wouldn't be difficult to do and i'm sure its been done as encysting dinos have been recorded on the major dino thread.

I'll search through the thread to see if I can find if its been done. If it hasn't been done, we should push someone to run some trials for us!

These are tools with unforgiving results on bacteria, micro fauna, tank parameters, O2, etc etc. I would say its no different than vibrant.

Just like a hammer can smash a thumb, it can also drive a nail. I can't argue against your beliefs, but I feel most hobbyists would call them successful products.

 

[Leadfooted]

My corals have never looked better! Seriously ask my wife! HA! The only thing that seems to have suffered is algae!

Great to hear, liking taking a leap ahead when they go back home!

 

[reeferfoxx]

It seems that you feel Vibrant works by nutrient deprivation and that isn't the main process through which it works. If it were, dosing nitrates and phosphates wouldn't be recommended during its use.

This is news to me and NOT posted on my bottle of vibrant. That product never worked for me.

If I am a hobbyist looking for help with dino's, I would be thrilled with a product that knocks the dino's back while I worked to improve biodiversity to allow something to outcompete the dino's.

Me too. Me too. FWIW gambierdiscus toxicus(Rev's dino) can be an epiphyte. Through some limited research on my behalf has shown that it lives among different strains of photosythetic macro and micro algae and diatoms. This in of itself sets the correct environment for gambierdiscus. Dosing vibrant can and/or will disrupt that type of environment. Thats removing favorable conditions. You can flash large amounts of GFO for 24 hours and THAT is removing favorable conditions.

I can't argue against your beliefs, but I feel most hobbyists would call them successful products.

They are and you are correct. Just don't think we haven't seen vibrant users complaining of the product in the dino threads. It goes both ways.

 

[Brew12]

That product never worked for me.

It didn't work for Rev the first time he tried it, either. UWC had to give him more aggressive directions to see the results he is currently getting.

And you don't even want to see what my system looked like the first time I used Vibrant. It wasn't pretty. Once I understood that I needed to do a better job controlling my nutrients while using Vibrant, and how to do it, my system cleaned right up.

With the complexities of a reef tank, there is no such thing as a universal solution.

Just don't think we haven't seen vibrant users complaining of the product in the dino threads. It goes both ways.

I would be shocked if it were otherwise. I don't feel that people complaining about something makes it a bad product. If that were the case there wouldn't be a good product in existence! A quick survey of online shopping reviews makes it pretty clear that people with a complain are much more likely to comment than people who are satisfied. It can be a sign of a bad product, but it isn't an immediate indicator.
This is a lesson I feel helping others teaches me almost every day on here. I recently gave someone advice to add 1ml/10g of H2O2 to their system. It nearly wiped their tank. We reviewed their tank volume and they actually only dosed 1ml/12g so it wasn't even full strength (thank goodness). You can bet they would complain about using H2O2 in a reef tank. And rightfully so. That's not to say that H2O2 isn't an effective tool to use.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I would be shocked if it were otherwise. I don't feel that people complaining about something makes it a bad product. If that were the case there wouldn't be a good product in existence!

You might be surprised. These quotes don't include separate threads.

I've been doing a lot of reflecting on when this started and what thing have changed. First off is dosing Vibrant to kill some bubble algae. This in turn killed my Chaeto. Second thing that I just realized and noticed and it definitely coincides with the Dino bloom, is that all my pineapple sponges died off.

It's certainly a learning experience! I'm learning I should have let nature take it's course orignally with this tank and skipped on all the GFO and Vibrant dosing right off the bat!

Do not use Vibrant (especially if you used dry rock). I am convinced it 100% caused my dino issues.

But an awesome member of our community always sets us straight.

Vibrant doesn't CAUSE dinos, but similar to any algaecide it would greatly reduce biodiversity and ought to be avoided, for reasons discussed earlier.

It's always a cause and effect. All sorts of disruptions can set off a bloom. Mainly because most of our tanks already have some sort of dino ready for the right conditions.

 

[Brew12]

You might be surprised. These quotes don't include separate threads.

It's always a cause and effect. All sorts of disruptions can set off a bloom. Mainly because most of our tanks already have some sort of dino ready for the right conditions.

I can find quite a few posts from people who complain about Reef2Reef (No, don't worry, I won't post them here). Does that make this a bad forum? I'd like to think not.
I can find quite a few posts from people who love Reef2Reef just like I can find a lot of posts from people who have successfully used Vibrant.

If you are so certain the Vibrant opens the door to Dino's, why don't I have any? After all, I started with a dry rock system. And I can assure you that the dino's are in there, I used to struggle with them. I also grow Chaeto, have a large number of copepods, amphipods and other life. I still have to clean my glass every 4 or 5 days to get the film algae off of it. And yes, I still dose Vibrant at least every other week and some times every week. I can also assure you that I had pineapple sponges while dosing Vibrant. They died off when they used up all of my silicate.

Maybe @taricha can chime in on the research he has done on Vibrant to explain why what I am seeing with my tank shouldn't be possible. And why there are literally thousands of people who have been very pleased with the product who apparently shouldn't be?

 

[reeferfoxx]

I can find quite a few posts from people who complain about Reef2Reef (No, don't worry, I won't post them here). Does that make this a bad forum? I'd like to think not.
I can find quite a few posts from people who love Reef2Reef just like I can find a lot of posts from people who have successfully used Vibrant.

If you are so certain the Vibrant opens the door to Dino's, why don't I have any? After all, I started with a dry rock system. And I can assure you that the dino's are in there, I used to struggle with them. I also grow Chaeto, have a large number of copepods, amphipods and other life. I still have to clean my glass every 4 or 5 days to get the film algae off of it. And yes, I still dose Vibrant at least every other week and some times every week. I can also assure you that I had pineapple sponges while dosing Vibrant. They died off when they used up all of my silicate.

Maybe @taricha can chime in on the research he has done on Vibrant to explain why what I am seeing with my tank shouldn't be possible. And why there are literally thousands of people who have been very pleased with the product who apparently shouldn't be?

Brew, I should have avoided this argument from the get go. You've completely misunderstood my comments from the start. I'm not disagreeing with you at all. All I'm asking is that the success shouldn't be shared until a certain length of time. Gambierdiscus as a rare form of dino that doesn't exactly fit in the same category as other dinos. One persons "pre-mature" success could be another persons failure. If Rev had gone onto this thread and said he cut his finger off and let his finger float in the tank, and thats made a 90% improvement, someone else might actually consider it LOL.

Lets just take a step back and see what happens. Thats all i'm saying.

 

[taricha]

I don't begrudge anyone whatever made their dinos go away.
Vibrant is good at its job, it seems easy on other livestock and very effective at killing algae of all kinds. It has greatly reduced dino numbers in every case I've ever seen it tried.
Is a maintenance dose of vibrant every couple of weeks acceptable? Most people will say yes.
What about running ozone?
Or metronidazole every couple of weeks?
Or a tune up dose of bleach?
Or peroxide on auto-doser?
Or a blackout every couple of weeks?
Etc.

Some of those things would be more acceptable than others. I've seen every one of them done by reefers to keep dinos away. All of them are very effective at reducing dinos. None of them entirely eliminate dinos.
Nor do they change the tank to make it a habitat that dinos can't thrive in. Of course that's not a reasonable expectation for a bottle of algae killer anyway.
So that's my emphasis. Trying to make tanks into places where Dinos don't succeed. And from what I've seen, a broad algae killer doesn't fit into that scheme.

A separate but related concern: what about the few cases who have dinos that vibrant doesn't push down to invisible levels even after lots of increasing doses and all the other algae is gone?
I mean sure, you can always keep switching algae killers, but some of them can be hard on livestock, and they never get ALL the dinos, and if you stop there's virtually nothing left to compete with dinos in that niche.
At that point, there really isn't much advice to give. No good ways forward from there.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Nor do they change the tank to make it a habitat that dinos can't thrive in. Of course that's not a reasonable expectation for a bottle of algae killer anyway.
So that's my emphasis. Trying to make tanks into places where Dinos don't succeed. And from what I've seen, a broad algae killer doesn't fit into that scheme.

This is/was the point I'm trying to make.

What I would like to see is Vibrant working and working to help the tank for the long haul. What my gut feeling says is, heavy dosings of vibrant is putting dinos in protection mode. Sort of like abruptly turning the lights on in a tank and seeing your fish scurry to a hiding place. Then once they are used to the light, they reappear.

However, I want to see this play out. There is a possibility that Vibrant can reduce some sort of element that's allowing this particular dino to thrive.

I have my own battles with dinos. It's not that i'm on the path of eradication but more so population control. They pop up, they go away. I'm ok with that. Now, if Rev's tank were my tank and I was going with vibrant, if I saw a 90% reduction or even a 70% reduction, biodiversity additions would continue. I would continue with fiji mud, add more live rock, purchase some critters from indio-pacific farms and tampa bay saltwater, diversify bacteria additions, add probiotics and maintain a maintenance schedule that I can live with. Supercharge the tank.

So, if I've made myself sound like a disrespectful critic, please understand that that isnt the case. I question everything, especially in forums, so that others can see that there my be some negative effects. If i'm wrong, awesome. I'll take wrong and learn from it.

 

[Second Shot]

FWIW I had an outbreak of ostreopsis that I knocked back with months of vibrant dosing. I just checked my notes and my last dose of vibrant was sept 25 ( its been longer than I thought). Knock on wood, I haven’t seen any in a long time. I do have a fresh bottle of vibrant on standby just incase and may start up maintenance doses just because.

 

[Brew12]

Thank you for chiming in, I appreciate it!

Some of those things would be more acceptable than others. I've seen every one of them done by reefers to keep dinos away. All of them are very effective at reducing dinos. None of them entirely eliminate dinos.

I've never felt it reasonable to try and eliminate dino's. It seems counter productive to make the attempt since some oceanic strains can be found in the upper atmosphere. Even if you were to somehow eradicate them, they would find their way back in eventually.

Nor do they change the tank to make it a habitat that dinos can't thrive in. Of course that's not a reasonable expectation for a bottle of algae killer anyway.
So that's my emphasis. Trying to make tanks into places where Dinos don't succeed.

I also completely agree with the emphasis in balancing nutrients along with increasing biodiversity to outcompete dino's. Even that is only part of the story. In addition to increasing competition, my experience is that it also takes a direct assault on the dino's to stop them from consuming nutrients so other organisms can take over and outcompete them. This can be a blackout, H2O2, UV, Vibrant, or any number of other methods.

Vibrant is good at its job, it seems easy on other livestock and very effective at killing algae of all kinds. It has greatly reduced dino numbers in every case I've ever seen it tried.

My feeling is that Vibrant serves the purpose of knocking back dino's very well. It can be used very aggressively which will take out algae and dino's. However, once the problem dino's are knocked back the Vibrant dosing can be cut back.

And from what I've seen, a broad algae killer doesn't fit into that scheme.

​

Just to be clear, Vibrant isn't a harsh chemical, it is a bacteria blend. I'm not privy to its detail bacterial composition so I can't explain exactly how it does what it does. I can tell you that film algae will still grow, just not as quickly. If using once a week or less, Chaeto can still thrive. Because of this, I would be careful to not lump it in with most algaecides on the market.

Vibrant is not a magic potion that eliminates the need for biodiversity or good husbandry. I feel it is a very useful tool to help control nuisance algae and dino's while the tank matures and the reefer improves their caretaking ability.

 

[revhtree]

This is/was the point I'm trying to make.

What I would like to see is Vibrant working and working to help the tank for the long haul. What my gut feeling says is, heavy dosings of vibrant is putting dinos in protection mode. Sort of like abruptly turning the lights on in a tank and seeing your fish scurry to a hiding place. Then once they are used to the light, they reappear.

However, I want to see this play out. There is a possibility that Vibrant can reduce some sort of element that's allowing this particular dino to thrive.

I have my own battles with dinos. It's not that i'm on the path of eradication but more so population control. They pop up, they go away. I'm ok with that. Now, if Rev's tank were my tank and I was going with vibrant, if I saw a 90% reduction or even a 70% reduction, biodiversity additions would continue. I would continue with fiji mud, add more live rock, purchase some critters from indio-pacific farms and tampa bay saltwater, diversify bacteria additions, add probiotics and maintain a maintenance schedule that I can live with. Supercharge the tank.

So, if I've made myself sound like a disrespectful critic, please understand that that isnt the case. I question everything, especially in forums, so that others can see that there my be some negative effects. If i'm wrong, awesome. I'll take wrong and learn from it.

I for one appreciate the discussion from all of you. I question plenty of things myself. It’s all good because we respect one another.

But I am upset that some people don’t like R2R!!

 

[reeferfoxx]

I for one appreciate the discussion from all of you. I question plenty of things myself. It’s all good because we respect one another.

But I am upset that some people don’t like R2R!!

The skeptic in me finds that claim hard to believe

Tell you what, I've heard people talk down about R2R and yet find them at reefing conventions taking advantage of R2Rs raffles. I find it hard to believe anyone could honestly dislike the forum as a whole. A realist would more likely look at the individual rather the community if something bothers them.

 

[rushbattle]

Ok, folks that think Vibrant (bacteria) is not a good way to control algae, and there are much better ways to run a home reef aquarium, please let us know about how your brilliant methodology works. Please include full system specs, setup steps, and any other relevant information to exactly replicate what you are doing. I assume you have datasets with enough statistical power to describe these effects? How many replicates did you use for each treatment? What did you use to quantify algae control? Looking forward to learning about these wonderful new methodologies.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Ok, folks that think Vibrant (bacteria) is not a good way to control algae, and there are much better ways to run a home reef aquarium, please let us know about how your brilliant methodology works.

Assuming this question is directed at someone similar to my position on vibrant. Since vibrant wasn't introduced till mid to late 2016, are you insinuating that the hobby was unable to maintain a reef prior to it's release?

 

[Brew12]

But I am upset that some people don’t like R2R!!

Rev, some times this is a good thing. The biggest complaints I get about R2R are that we require posts to be family friendly and non political. Some people bristle against those restrictions. And just like not every aquarium product is for everyone, not every reef forum is for everyone. I'd rather keep R2R the way it is than make it more inclusive!

 

[Brew12]

Ok, folks that think Vibrant (bacteria) is not a good way to control algae, and there are much better ways to run a home reef aquarium, please let us know about how your brilliant methodology works. Please include full system specs, setup steps, and any other relevant information to exactly replicate what you are doing. I assume you have datasets with enough statistical power to describe these effects? How many replicates did you use for each treatment? What did you use to quantify algae control? Looking forward to learning about these wonderful new methodologies.

I'm a fan of Vibrant (obviously) but let's not make Vibrant something it isn't. Vibrant is a powerful tool, it is not a methodology for running an reef tank. Using Vibrant can help us when things get out of line, and help the tank look a little better between cleanings. It also gives us a little buffer in case our system gets near the edge of an undesirable limit. It isn't a replacement for nutrient export, water chemistry stability, and other forms of good husbandry.

 

[reefwiser]

Rev, some times this is a good thing. The biggest complaints I get about R2R are that we require posts to be family friendly and non political. Some people bristle against those restrictions. And just like not every aquarium product is for everyone, not every reef forum is for everyone. I'd rather keep R2R the way it is than make it more inclusive!

Then we don’t “NEED” those kind of people. [emoji3]
Having been on forums before they where even web browsers. I have seen way to much crazy talk. Generally this type of person is not reliable with the information they provide as they view the world in a skewed way.

 

[Reef Nutrition]

So happy to see things are improving!! Are the copepods still kicking? @revhtree

-Chad