Hydros Maven is Delayed

[jmcdona6]

I am not insisting that they cannot have an issue but that they do work unless there is some kind of interference or settings that are not correct. I did have a camera that caused interference. It was set to off in the app but apparently still had the wifi going. It was in a window near the tank so it was causing interference with the controllers at the tank more than anything else but was also affecting my iPad even in a different room. I finally tracked it down and unplugged power to the camera and all issues went away. You can also set any one of the controllers as the preferred wifi master so that can help also with issues with wifi devices such as the wifi strips if you do have a collective of controllers. Since all the controllers can be used stand alone they all would need the wired connection if you were to go that way. The command bus will allow wired communications between all the controllers that are members of the collective without wifi or internet. I always have issue with my internet access. It used to be rock solid until Spectrum took over.ever since the internet intermittently drops out but usually not for long but there have been long periods. The longest was for 5 days straight. I guess since I came from the Digital Aquatics platform the Hydros makes more sense to me since most things are quite close. In fact when I had just started with the Hydros I was sending signal back and forth between the Archon and Hydros using ports on each. I had no Hydros at the tank but was using it to control my ATO and AWC but a signal from the Archon was taking the place of the ATO sensor and also had a signal to halt the AWC from the Archon.

I think that is sort of the point though. There are A LOT of wifi devices these days. My house currently has 34 discrete items connected to the wifi. Most of them concentrated in family areas where tanks typically are as well. I am not disconnecting my security cameras, smart TV, or whatever just so Hydros can work better.

 

[mjszos]

What that means -- Unless those BNCs, DINs and other cords are sealed, and the connectors have IP-65 rated seals (gaskets, glans, o-rings, whatever) then the IP-65 rating is kind of moot. Water can't enter the controller, but it can still enter connectors and create a short. Tossing a $2 IP65 RJ connector on their wouldn't change a thing.

Sure it would, it'd change their profit margin.

The XP8 and Launch are not IP65 rated since the have the AC outlet on them. The others are but that said I do not put any controllers where they are exposed to higher humidity such as near a sump in a cabinet regardless of ratings. I would not want to get cables to hookup my 16 controllers using cat 5 plus my router only has cat 5 4 inputs on it. So I would have to get a switch to do that. I have had no issues connecting with my controllers using bluetooth when needed.

It's a little disingenuous to use your sample size of one to indicate that nobody should have problems. If we operated in a vacuum I'd agree with you, WiFi should be plenty for everyone... But maybe someone has a hundred other IoT devices in their house causing problems?

Here's a fun example; I had to swap the smart power strips in my house because they were causing some anomalous activity with my smart light switches rendering them functionally worthless (what's the point of a dimmer that doesn't dim?)

It was an undocumented and issue that drove me crazy. It should have worked, but it didn't because insert reason here.

 

[n2585722]

I think that is sort of the point though. There are A LOT of wifi devices these days. My house currently has 34 discrete items connected to the wifi. Most of them concentrated in family areas where tanks typically are as well. I am not disconnecting my security cameras, smart TV, or whatever just so Hydros can work better.

That camera worked well with the Hydros for years and it was also affecting our iPads and other devices including other cameras so something went wrong. I was not using at the time since I now have another camera outside that monitors the area where it was monitoring. I have plans to move it try it again but just have not got around to doing it. A reboot may have fixed the issue but since it was not in use I just went ahead left it unplugged.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am not insisting that they cannot have an issue but that they do work unless there is some kind of interference

Which appears to be a rather common issue - and therefore the desire for hardwire by many people (feasible or not)

Since all the controllers can be used stand alone they all would need the wired connection if you were to go that way.

I would prefer they did if I were a customer. Or a simple ethernet bridge module that could be added to the collective.

 

[reeferKen]

Sounds stressful while you were away JMCdona. Unable to use emergency mode. What happens after a hard reset? Did your wife have to do anything with the settings after the hard reset to get your system running back to normal?

 

[areefer01]

Difference is, as a paying customer everyone who has a problem should be able to to freely discuss their problem and what they would like to see instead. Whereas people who don't have a problem aren't really contributing anything to the conversation by telling those who have a problem that it is actually their problem and what they want doesn't matter...when its not about them at all. Unless they have a constructive solution.

Are both parties not a paying customer? Maybe one shouldn't have a predisposition tendency towards those who have a different experience? To say they really are not contributing is a bit insulting. Maybe their installation is different? Maybe their lot number is different? Could be anything or nothing at all but it doesn't hurt to take in that feedback. There is bias no doubt, on both sides.

We disagree. No harm, no foul. Not like we are trying to solve world hunger.

 

[jmcdona6]

Are both parties not a paying customer? Maybe one shouldn't have a predisposition tendency towards those who have a different experience? To say they really are not contributing is a bit insulting. Maybe their installation is different? Maybe their lot number is different? Could be anything or nothing at all but it doesn't hurt to take in that feedback. There is bias no doubt, on both sides.

We disagree. No harm, no foul. Not like we are trying to solve world hunger.

Haha agreed. Its all good.

Both are paying. both are more than free to post a positive/negative review and talk about what they would like and not like to see about the product. Hell...both are free to be **** hats if that is their preference. Free world. What I was targeting as nonconstructive was jumping into a conversation that doesn't apply to them, as they stated they do not have the issue, to tell the other customer that either its their problem or that their proposed solution wouldn't matter to them because they think wifi is so much better or that they don't have the issue...etc. etc.

Odds are its a complex mix of customer error, limitless potential issues with hardware compatibility, interference, solar flares, gremlins...potential equipment shortfalls by the manufacturer...probably not even Hydros but some component manufacturer somewhere.

Circling back to the core argument...you know what doesn't have those issues as often? HARDWIRE! Or at least if it was an issue it was more than likely upstream from the controller. In two years with a hardwired APEX I had maybe one internet related issue...and it was actually the powerline device I used to get hardwire to that area.

 

[WayneTheUrchin]

One of the reasons is a CAT 5 connecter would cause the loss of the IP65 rating and yes it would cost more per controller since every one would have to have the connector since they all independently communicate with the Hydros cloud even if they are in a collective.

If it was just rj45 to command bus you could have outside your cabinet and it not being ip65 wouldn't matter. Also, if it did get damaged by moisture you just replace the relatively cheap adapter with less risk to your collective.

 

[n2585722]

If it was just rj45 to command bus you could have outside your cabinet and it not being ip65 wouldn't matter. Also, if it did get damaged by moisture you just replace the relatively cheap adapter with less risk to your collective.

The command bus is not the same as the CAT signal. It is more of a CAN bus system. So you would need a microprocessor to get to a CAT 5 signal so my guess is it would not be real cheap since it would require as much as the small controllers to operate. The issue is each controller communicates with the Hydros cloud individually for setting updates of any kind. So not sure how they would do that. They do have a suggestion thread on the Hydro forum where you can make suggestions like this.

 

[jmcdona6]

The command bus is not the same as the CAT signal. It is more of a CAN bus system. So you would need a microprocessor to get to a CAT 5 signal so my guess is it would not be real cheap since it would require as much as the small controllers to operate. The issue is each controller communicates with the Hydros cloud individually for setting updates of any kind. So not sure how they would do that. They do have a suggestion thread on the Hydro forum where you can make suggestions like this.

And I think they have shot it down decisively for reasons you list. I want hardwire, but from what they have said and my technical understanding as well...it would be practically impossible. A design decision they made and didn't leave many if any doors for adaptation to hardwire later on. For all the completely valid arguments for hardwire as an option...its moot.

 

[JeffB418]

The Rj connector would not cause loss of IP65 rating as long as the connector was rated. Yes, it would add cost, and that is why they opted to use wifi only.

I would question the architecture if each device needs its own internet connection instead of one device being elected as the gateway and the rest communicate with it over the data bus.

It’s a much bigger beast that just adding a RJ45 connector to make hydros hard wired Ethernet capable. The series of SoC devices that hydros uses is highly optimized for WiFi and wireless communications. The wireless transceivers and associated interface logic is deeply integrated into these devices to make it very efficient. That series of devices they used are heavily utilized in a lot of the IoT market. A couple of issues of adding hardwired Ethernet come to mind for this device after digging into the series:
1) pin limitations: these devices have a very limited number of IO pins. To add Ethernet you need to add a PHY. This converts low level logic voltages to Ethernet voltage levels. PHYs require a decently amount of pins for interface. It would use more than half of available pins. Which current hydros devices use most or all available pins.
2) second issue is since these SoC are optimized for WiFi, they don’t have dedicated hard core MACs. So you’d either need to implement it in code (very inefficient and would use a significant amount of memory and space).

In all reality you’d be better off pairing up another MCU that supports Ethernet natively and bridge it to current devices, but that takes development time and money, and additional board space that comes at a premium on some designs.

 

[braaap]

Let’s be honest. Coralvue won’t add a Ethernet port. Because that cost money. Just like they cheaped out and only did 2.4 WiFi chips when I could buy a 5ghz chip for less than $10 on the open market. Buying in bulk could easily get that down to the $2-3/chip range. But that cuts into profit margin.

Remember this isn’t about the end user. It’s about the bottom line. And coralvue has proven to not care about input from the users. Hence why they require stupid things like signing into the app every 30 days or forced updates to use a product. Ran into that yesterday. Was gone and got an error from my controller. Firmware update was pushed and I couldn’t access the controller. Had to use the web based server and that was having issues/down.

 

[JeffB418]

It’s a much bigger beast that just adding a RJ45 connector to make hydros hard wired Ethernet capable. The series of SoC devices that hydros uses is highly optimized for WiFi and wireless communications. The wireless transceivers and associated interface logic is deeply integrated into these devices to make it very efficient. That series of devices they used are heavily utilized in a lot of the IoT market. A couple of issues of adding hardwired Ethernet come to mind for this device after digging into the series:
1) pin limitations: these devices have a very limited number of IO pins. To add Ethernet you need to add a PHY. This converts low level logic voltages to Ethernet voltage levels. PHYs require a decently amount of pins for interface. It would use more than half of available pins. Which current hydros devices use most or all available pins.
2) second issue is since these SoC are optimized for WiFi, they don’t have dedicated hard core MACs. So you’d either need to implement it in code (very inefficient and would use a significant amount of memory and space).

In all reality you’d be better off pairing up another MCU that supports Ethernet natively and bridge it to current devices, but that takes development time and money, and additional board space that comes at a premium on some designs.

I didn’t even get into implementation past the Mac layer ever. Even more resources used in SW that’s better handled by a device made for Ethernet and not WiFi.

 

[BeanAnimal]

It’s a much bigger beast than.. To add Ethernet......
...they don’t have dedicated hard core MACs.

...In all reality you’d be better off pairing up another MCU...
....and additional board space that comes at a premium on some designs.

I am a lifelong electronics hobbyist and have built around MCUs for over 2 decades. The point was not to argue how to add hardwired ethernet to an already released product, but that it should have been there -- at the very least in a standalone node, from the start.

The same with Profilux. These are not IoT toys, they are life support systems.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Let’s be honest. Coralvue won’t add a Ethernet port. Because that cost money. Just like they cheaped out and only did 2.4 WiFi chips when I could buy a 5ghz chip for less than $10 on the open market

The 2.4 vs 5 issue is more a matter of support.

Devices that can do both tend to flap between both on networks where 2.4 and 5 both have the same SSID. Band steering is a nightmare. Trying to explain to end users how to troubleshoot and resolve that issue is mind numbing. So easier (and cheaper both on parts and support) to just use 2.4 and assume that most APs have a 2.4 radio enabled.

 

[JeffB418]

I am a lifelong electronics hobbyist and have built around MCUs for over 2 decades. The point was not to argue how to add hardwired ethernet, but that it should have been there -- at the very least in a standalone node, from the start.

The same with Profilux. These are not IoT toys, they are life support systems.

And if they did it from the start, you’d complain about something else.

 

[BeanAnimal]

And if they did it from the start, you’d complain about something else.

No need to be inflammatory, Jeff.

I am entitled to complain offer my opinion about anything that I wish. As such, I have plenty of negative opinions about this product ranging from its form factor to the naming conventions to the feature set to the marketing.

 

[redseaenroute]

Sure on a Cisco exam… (sorry had to)

Real world, especially at the consumer level in a high density (every neighbor has an AP or three, as well as 10 IoT devices 2 wireless printers and their Comcast router all stepping on each other… but you already know that


I have not taken one apart to look at the chipset. Nonetheless, my point stands in the context it was made. I would prefer to see these devices have a hard Ethernet connection, same with my Profilux.

I don’t keep up any certification any more…thank goodness.

I'm with you on the hardwired. The argument that wifi is much more reliable now days is also valid. It is. But I would go even further and say, I want a controller collective that can operate 100% in an offline capacity. I want to have a local control interface (laptop or OEM remote) and I want the ability to completely sever all ties to the Internet and still have a completely trustworthy controller. My APEX classic stays disconnected 99% of the time. I don't worry about bad FW/SW pushes or any of that stuff. It just....works. I love technology, I enjoy seeing the evolution of that technology. But sometimes simpler really is better (opinion)

 

[redseaenroute]

Also... My bad for derailing the thread with a simple "I like wired controller" comment! Any innovation is collectively good for this hobby. Regardless of the opinions connected to that innovation. It just means that there is a high enough demand to justify it! The more reef enthusiasts the better.

 

[jmcdona6]

Also... My bad for derailing the thread with a simple "I like wired controller" comment! Any innovation is collectively good for this hobby. Regardless of the opinions connected to that innovation. It just means that there is a high enough demand to justify it! The more reef enthusiasts the better.

Yeah this guy is the real enemy here. We should all band together to attack him.

:angry-face: