Hydros Maven is Delayed

[mjszos]

Not producing the reagents for your own product is ludicrous

It's business 101 to focus on your specialty and contract out/white label the things you don't have the infrastructure/expertise to do.

100% it's a better solution to have ABC produce the reagents as they have experience and would likely produce more consistent results, as opposed to CV investing millions into a facility + labor + supply lines.

 

[rtparty]

It's business 101 to focus on your specialty and contract out/white label the things you don't have the infrastructure/expertise to do.

100% it's a better solution to have ABC produce the reagents as they have experience and would likely produce more consistent results, as opposed to CV investing millions into a facility + labor + supply lines.

Millions? Really?

How did ABC come up with the millions for their "facility + labor + supply lines"? Do you really think there are so many auto testers sold that it requires that large of an operation to mix some chemicals together? Loads of companies in this industry mix in their basement or started that way. ABC just ripped off someone else's work. They didn't invest "millions" to create reagents

 

[areefer01]

Millions? Really?

How did ABC come up with the millions for their "facility + labor + supply lines"? Do you really think there are so many auto testers sold that it requires that large of an operation to mix some chemicals together? Loads of companies in this industry mix in their basement or started that way. ABC just ripped off someone else's work. They didn't invest "millions" to create reagents

I was told it was innovation.

 

[rtparty]

I was told it was innovation.

Marketers gonna market! Amirite?

 

[braaap]

Millions? Really?

How did ABC come up with the millions for their "facility + labor + supply lines"? Do you really think there are so many auto testers sold that it requires that large of an operation to mix some chemicals together? Loads of companies in this industry mix in their basement or started that way. ABC just ripped off someone else's work. They didn't invest "millions" to create reagents

Ripped off? These are basic chemicals that were being mixed in a bottle and overcharged for. The information is all on the SDS. Nothing to rip off.

 

[saltcreep74]

another delay...what a surprise.... :rolleyes:

 

[braaap]

It is, but I'm a bit suspicious of that justification.

Do they expect to have such a substantial problem with reagents that it justifies building and maintaining a system that requires the customer register every bottle before using it?

Like, they could have the traceability with bar codes without having to scan every bottle before use and restrict the ability for the system to run.

IMO it's profit-motivated with the benefit of them having to deal with less support due to people using unsupported reagents.

Which is fine, if the prices are still reasonable and the availability is good. We'll have to see if that's the case.

I'm sure their experience with people making reagents for the X10 hasn't been seamless.

They already refuse to honor any warranty on devices that are sold 2nd hand. Even if only a month old. They also refuse to offer warranty on "wear parts" like pump heads that crack. Which should NEVER crack. That is just a poor design.

What a time to be alive, Reef Testing DRM and people defending it. :face-with-tears-of-joy:

Exactly. There is nothing to gain by tracing. If they have a lot issue they just put out a post or email to any Maven user with lot numbers. Problem solved. This is a money grab pure and simple. It is a way to lock down the system.

 

[BeanAnimal]

It's business 101 to focus on your specialty and contract out/white label the things you don't have the infrastructure/expertise to do.

100% it's a better solution to have ABC produce the reagents as they have experience and would likely produce more consistent results, as opposed to CV investing millions into a facility + labor + supply lines.

Millions? ABC is a single person that works as a chemist in a lab for somebody else — (not overly pleasant to deal with) that makes reagents as a side hustle — in a small makeshift home lab, if I fully remember the rather unpleasant conversation that I had with him.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Exactly. There is nothing to gain by tracing. If they have a lot issue they just put out a post or email to any Maven user with lot numbers. Problem solved. This is a money grab pure and simple. It is a way to lock down the system.

There is a legal grey area here, while they can argue the locked eco system is due to a proprietary technology, if this is standard chemistry and colorimetry, then they may actually be violating the law if they prevent third party consumables.

One way or the other, I don’t care how accurate the device is, I will not be giving them a penny of my money as a matter of principle.

Somebody mentioned Hanna checkers… there is nothing regarding those devices preventing you from using third party reagents.

 

[mjszos]

Millions? Really?

How did ABC come up with the millions for their "facility + labor + supply lines"? Do you really think there are so many auto testers sold that it requires that large of an operation to mix some chemicals together? Loads of companies in this industry mix in their basement or started that way. ABC just ripped off someone else's work. They didn't invest "millions" to create reagents

Millions? ABC is a single person that works as a chemist in a lab for somebody else — (not overly pleasant to deal with) that makes reagents as a side hustle — in a small makeshift home lab, if I fully remember the rather unpleasant conversation that I had with him.

It appears I'm putting way too much faith into the standards into which these chemicals are being produced/mixed/packaged. I absolutely expected it to be done in a proper laboratory (likely following NIST guidelines). Which in that case, yes, it does indeed cost millions to build out a facility, achieve certifications, establish supply lines, etc.

Apparently it's a witches cauldron which is pretty surprising to me.

 

[rtparty]

It appears I'm putting way too much faith into the standards into which these chemicals are being produced/mixed/packaged. I absolutely expected it to be done in a proper laboratory (likely following NIST guidelines). Which in that case, yes, it does indeed cost millions to build out a facility, achieve certifications, establish supply lines, etc.

Apparently it's a witches cauldron which is pretty surprising to me.

Those labs are out there but not for our use. Decent reagents for calibrating machines are hundreds of dollars for a little bottle. Cristoph talked about it in one of his ICP threads discussing why they can’t calibrate an ICP machine for each test. It’s not financially feasible in the least.

Hence, why I call out the hypocrisy and clever marketing by CV here. They are going to walled garden their tester and reagents, disguise it as “good for the consumer”, and yet they immediately jumped for ABC when it could cut into their competitor’s profit. Sure, it’s “good business” but hypocrisy at its finest

 

[BeanAnimal]

You

It appears I'm putting way too much faith into the standards into which these chemicals are being produced/mixed/packaged. I absolutely expected it to be done in a proper laboratory (likely following NIST guidelines). Which in that case, yes, it does indeed cost millions to build out a facility, achieve certifications, establish supply lines, etc.

Apparently it's a witches cauldron which is pretty surprising to me.

I think you may be conflating large scale manufacturing with cottage industry. To that end, one can put a small scale, accredited manufacturing lab together for almost nothing. Be it for reagents, or compounded medications for human consumption.

But, further — traceable to a NIST standard and certified by NIST are worlds apart… neither of which are relevant to a market this size.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Hence, why I call out the hypocrisy and clever marketing by CV here. They are going to walled garden their tester and reagents, disguise it as “good for the consumer”, and yet they immediately jumped for ABC when it could cut into their competitor’s profit. Sure, it’s “good business” but hypocrisy at its finest

The more I see both of them say, the more turned off on all of their products I become. This kind of ices the cake. I watched a few minutes of the video — my take away? They launched with no real product and only a concept. They did so to get the Jump on the competition. They have and are still struggling to deliver a design and are also struggling with a long term profitability model to make it all work. The BS about delays to add features and get it right translates more to “we don’t have a real product yet and are still struggling with a design”.

 

[rtparty]

The more I see both of them say, the more turned off on all of their products I become. This kind of ices the cake. I watched a few minutes of the video — my take away? They launched with no real product and only a concept. They did so to get the Jump on the competition. They have and are still struggling to deliver a design and are also struggling with a long term profitability model to make it all work. The BS about delays to add features and get it right translates more to “we don’t have a real product yet and are still struggling with a design”.

The sad part is they had the literal playbook of “How not to launch an auto tester” that was written by Neptune and they still fumbled it….horribly

 

[mjszos]

Those labs are out there but not for our use. Decent reagents for calibrating machines are hundreds of dollars for a little bottle. Cristoph talked about it in one of his ICP threads discussing why they can’t calibrate an ICP machine for each test. It’s not financially feasible in the least.

I can absolutely see the calibration for an ICP test which is more of a fringe thing in this industry, but test kits are used by virtually ever reefer. Doing a cursory Google search (so take it with a mountain of salt), Reefing is a multi-billion dollar industry. I absolutely would have assumed that the companies with a vested interest (Hanna, Red Sea, Neptune, etc) in ensuring consistent output would be held to a more stringent standard.

Apparently I am incorrect. I wish I could say I was surprised, but I am a little disappointed.

You

I think you may be conflating large scale manufacturing with cottage industry. To that end, one can put a small scale, accredited manufacturing lab together for almost nothing. Be it for reagents, or compounded medications for human consumption.

But, further — traceable to a NIST standard and certified by NIST are worlds apart… neither of which are relevant to a market this size.

These are all valid points, and as I stated above I apparently put too much faith into the big names wanting to make the proper investment to ensure things are being done in the "correct" way.

Your last point regarding traceable vs. certified is totally valid. I assumed the latter, but looking more closely at Hanna for instance I see it's the former.

 

[JayM]

another delay...what a surprise.... :rolleyes:

It isn’t another delay. It’s the same delay.

 

[saltcreep74]

It isn’t another delay. It’s the same delay.

Thanks for pointing that out Jay.....:rolleyes:

 

[BeanAnimal]

It isn’t another delay. It’s the same delay.

Simplest explanation (Occam's Razor) is typically the correct one.

They appear to have announced and pre-launched a product without really ever having a product. They are now struggling to deliver what they marketed because they didn't engineer it to begin with - it was more concept than engineered reality.

 

[bubbgee]

Simplest explanation (Occam's Razor) is typically the correct one.

They appear to have announced and pre-launched a product without really ever having a product. They are now struggling to deliver what they marketed because they didn't engineer it to begin with - it was more concept than engineered reality.

True, but I still want them to succeed to push Neptune to work on their product. The more competition, the better it is for all of us.

 

[FishLvR]

I am using a series of smart plugs. I am finding I have less issues than people with Reef Computers. Paired with an old Android Tablet I can monitor Temp with my Aerolab bluetooth thermometer, pumps, lights. As soon as they release a good reef computer I am all over it.