Could they? yes, any cloud connected device from any manufacturer could do this. Even Neptune Fusion's ToCs have a section talking about the right to charge for basic/free vs premium/paid features that has been in there for likely a decade. But the likeliness of this occurring is quite low across any manufacturer. The DRM-style application here on reagents does not directly mean they intend to exploit fees or other items and just jumping to conclusions to stir the pot.
Hydros Maven is Delayed
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There is a difference between having a device that can be programmed locally, via the LAN, USB or Wifi or Bluetooth - but reports outbound to the "cloud" and also sets up a secure connection to receive programming from a cloud interface.
and that of:
A device that is reliant on the "cloud" for virtually all or almost all of its programming interface, with a crippled or non existent local interface.
Mobius is (IMHO) hot garbage, but so was ecosmart live or whatever it was and the local interface was not great, but at least worked without the mothership.
I won't own a reef factory product because of the dependence, or Neptune, or focustronic, etc.
I would not have purchased a ReefBot lab if I knew that it can't run without an internet connection, even temporarily.
Reef-Engineer
Active Member
Just my 0.02....
Forcing folks to use your reagents is a good business move (yay capitalism) but makes you look controlling to the consumers. These systems are not doing revolutionary tests, and the reagents/process is not original or patentable, but you still want the profit. It is fair to claim that your accuracy promise only applies to your own, non-expired reagents, but forcing their use is a cash grab.
I think the Maven will be a cool device when it finally releases, and I like the most recent physical changes they have made, but they overstepped (in my opinion) with the reagent bit and I'll likely pass due to that.
Yes I use ABC reagents in my Trident. Yes I still pay neptune for my rebuild kit every 2 years.
Personally, I despise the premise of buying devices that only fully function with a constant influx of money, and minimize their use/cost if at all possible.
to each their own though!
Forcing folks to use your reagents is a good business move (yay capitalism) but makes you look controlling to the consumers. These systems are not doing revolutionary tests, and the reagents/process is not original or patentable, but you still want the profit. It is fair to claim that your accuracy promise only applies to your own, non-expired reagents, but forcing their use is a cash grab.
I think the Maven will be a cool device when it finally releases, and I like the most recent physical changes they have made, but they overstepped (in my opinion) with the reagent bit and I'll likely pass due to that.
Yes I use ABC reagents in my Trident. Yes I still pay neptune for my rebuild kit every 2 years.
Personally, I despise the premise of buying devices that only fully function with a constant influx of money, and minimize their use/cost if at all possible.
to each their own though!
As long as the buyer is aware what is included with and without the "premium cloud membership" one can make a decision whether that controller is indeed the way to go.
You start eliminating features for the non-paying member and suddenly a used apex jr. might be a better choice.
Yeah I got to dig into the updated changes in the latest show model they had at RAP Orlando. They had all the revisions of the cuvette holder there to see in person. they had 6 variations on display. It was interesting to see how it evolved over the last year from the initial design using a stir bar and a direct mirror to bounce back the colorometer reading to the latest version using prisms. Some highlights of the latest version: 1) larger custom sampling cuvette with integrated drain port on the bottom that is curved to the drain port to ensure as much is removed. plus the larger size to increase resolution capabilities. 2) use of prisms to bounce the sample light out to the cuvette holder, through the sample, and back into the maven's sample eye on the other side. this also isolates the source light from the reading eye. the original design had them very close so I assume cross contamination from source to eye might have been an issue for resolution. 3) addition of a second port on the bottom of the cuvette for the use of a second dedicated air pump for mixing the sample under test, this replaced the mixing bar which was apparently inconsistent in this application (maybe since it was being used vertically?). 4) moving to custom injection molded parts for the cuvette assembly (parts on display were 3D printed analogs) 5) alignment pins for the cuvette to ensure repeatability, org design introduced variability. 7) serviceability of the cuvette seemed to be very easy, pop off the assembly, slide down the cover and then the cuvette can be removed from the prism carrier and cleaned or replaced.
I asked about concerns of oxidation from using the primary air pump for reagent mixing. They moved to a stir bar assembly for the one reagent that requires agitation, so that concern isn't an issue there. As for the others, I was told that they don't really require mixing and the air pump is mainly used to purge unused reagent back into the bottles. Once the reagent is purged back, the pump is turned off before any substantial aeration is done. Also pushing back the unused reagent provides some mixing effect as well. From discussions, it seems like they have done substantial testing to verify the mavens processes effectively purge fluids correctly and completely, including cross contamination concerns. I also brought up concerns like the "hub" used on the Trident and how it doesn't have tubing barbs and pressure can cause them to pop off... but their engineer confirmed with me that wont be an issue since their assemblies are barbed.
They also had a reagent cady on display that held the reagents tightly under the device that could be hung or sit flat. It also accommodated the stir bar assembly. I was told the Maven will come with glass reagent bottles and refills are provided/purchased to refill these as needed.
I was told some testing time lengths but my memory is horrible, but seemed in line with other auto testers from my impressions at the time.
Serviceability; all the pumps/solenoids are mounted internally to a metal sled that can be removed and serviced outside the unit. The front can be removed, then access to the sled is behind that. I was told all items are individually connectorized so you can service items one at a time if needed.
Overall seemed like user experience and serviceability was more polished on this design as compared to the iV/X10 implementation. Color coded hoses/connections. Cuvette design. Etc. provide less chances for users to hang themselves. Can't say much for the software side yet since I didn't look at that.
General disclaimer, all information is subject to change and not any official communication from Coralvue. These are my interpretation from discussions at RAP Orlando on the unit they had on display.
SlowAndStupid
Active Member
It sure sounds nice. I'm interested in the device but in the end automated testing is a want not a need for me. I can keep manually testing as needed. I watched their update video. It sounded so good til they mentioned having to scan the barcode for reagents. That really soured the video for me. I hate they had to let greed affect the product release.
at least they were upfront with the barcode stuff, reef factory has barcodes as well on all their reagents but rarely ever hear that mentioned as well. but I get it, diff company, diff situation.
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Whatever beliefs help you sleep at night are your prerogative. (not being flip, your comfort and trust of a [any] vendor is wholly up to you) and you can be a fan of any company or product that you wish.
Form where i sit - none of these companies have long term viable business models with these devices and sooner or later it comes out in the wash. But that is another conversation.
In the end don’t care what they do, I personally will not buy into a system where DRM is used to block 3rd party consumables — especially when said consumables are far from proprietary. Add to that the cloud dependency, UA (their blessing required to buy or sell a used device) etc, and they don’t get a penny of my money — ever. If that leaves me on an island, so be it.
BTW - If you want to find examples of products in this niche, or others where this has happened already, you don't have to look far.
Bluefish LED Controller - basically, "we can't do this for free anymore, pay or device is no longer controllable (fixed settings) and if enough people don't agree to pay, then all devices will be basically bricks when we shut the servers down"
Sonos, DJI, Phillips, GoPro… I can list dozens of examples of retroactive free to paid features or connectivity that if not accepted, turns an expensive device into a paper weight.
I think older devices, yes? Newer (Fusion linked?) no?
I'm not going to get all worked up by whether or not they use mandatory proprietary reagents, but the long term costs of any system I use, as well as how easy or difficult it is to get supplies will be a factor in what system I get, if I ever choose to.
But personally, I am not convinced that ANY parameter needs to be tracked hourly or even daily beyond possibly Alkalinity.
What is the benefit of testing nitrates and phosphates daily? Generally speaking you feed roughly the same thing daily, you have the same amount of fish, the same amount of algae, the same amount of coral. What benefit am I missing out on by only testing once a week? What sort of correction could I make that would imapact it? I guess the only real use case I can think of is maybe if you use it in conjunction with nitrate and phosphate dosing.
But personally, I am not convinced that ANY parameter needs to be tracked hourly or even daily beyond possibly Alkalinity.
What is the benefit of testing nitrates and phosphates daily? Generally speaking you feed roughly the same thing daily, you have the same amount of fish, the same amount of algae, the same amount of coral. What benefit am I missing out on by only testing once a week? What sort of correction could I make that would imapact it? I guess the only real use case I can think of is maybe if you use it in conjunction with nitrate and phosphate dosing.
n2585722
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My understanding is as long as the original owner deletes the controllers from their account there is no issue with selling or even giving them to someone. The issue is the controller cannot be assigned to two different accounts at the same time. You can give someone permission to access you devices though like a tank sitter if needed. But if you are getting rid of the controller just go through the steps to remove it from your account before you do give or sell it to someone else. Otherwise you would have to get CoralVue involved. They will try and get in touch with the original owner first.
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It was my understanding that you have to have interact with CV to make it happen and they indicate that they reserve the right to deny…
Maybe this has changed and users can fully unregister a device on their own. If that is the case, I do stand corrected.
n2585722
2500 Club Member
From what I have seen on their forum or the facebook group the new owner only had an issue when they could not get in contact with the original owner and have them delete it from their account. My guess is the original owner did not know that needed to be done and probably deleted the app from their devices. There may be a way in the newer app for the original owner to transfer ownership if the new owner has an account setup already. If the new owner cannot contact the original owner then CoralVue would need to get involved but they will still try and get in contact with the original owner before they transfer it.
Yeah any user who owns a device may unregister it so it can be used or sold elsewhere. Support only gets involved when someone sells something and didn’t unregister it.
https://www.coralvuehydros.com/product-support/hydros-control/unregister-a-device/
areefer01
5000 Club Member
You do not need to pay for GoPro's cloud service. You can control everything via the camera. If one chooses to use their cloud solution it basically pays for itself if you ever lose your camera. I use one on my diving trips.
I also don't pay a subscription fee to Sonos but maybe their new stuff is different or I am misunderstanding.
The Apex can be accessed via local network. The Trident is not stand-alone though. You need the proper Apex controller.
They all have their warts...
areefer01
5000 Club Member
Very true. None of it is required. Most of the stuff we have been talking about should be known upfront and no surprises. Maven - register reagents. Neptune, buy Neptune labeled (ABC is an option for the Trident, not for the NP).
I will say this though. If anyone in this thread or passes by and reads it and the reagent registration bothers you contact CV. Visit their web portal, hit contact us, and speak your mind. I did the minute after that video came out and I'm not using any CV products. I didn't want to come across as a poo head so just gave my feedback on the content they shared and my thoughts on the reagent drama. Much to my surprise I received a nice email back from them thanking me for sharing my thoughts even though I am not a product user anymore.
Your mileage may vary of course.
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There were free cloud features that were moved to pay… it’s not important other than an example.
Also not worth getting into here, but the trade-in debacle was the most outstanding.
Of course, as does GHL.
As I mentioned, for me it is several things, but in context to Hydros — mostly the almost total reliance on cloud and the DRM style reagent announcement. I can happily live without :)
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