Hydros Maven is Delayed

[jmcdona6]

The big issue with hardwiring is all controllers would have to have a IP65 cat 5 port and all controllers would have to have a hardwired connection to the router. I currently have 17 controllers. I do not have a way to connect all of them to my router not to mention all the CAT 5 wiring to the router which is not in the same place as any of my controllers. I think the dedicated access point that is hardwired to the router would be easier to implement anyway. All the controllers have to have access to the internet.

As they engineered it yes. And of course its structural so it cannot be easily (or affordably) changed. I get it.

But it didn't have to be that way, and while the redundancy aspect is a plus...reliable connectivity is better...for me at least. Personal I know. I also don't know if having 17 controllers is the majority use case here. Most people only have a handful within a few feet of each other.

At the end of the day the limitation you defend Hydros with is a limitation they designed. Its not a law of nature or engineering they were bound by. They don't get a pass because of it.

 

[n2585722]

As they engineered it yes. And of course its structural so it cannot be easily (or affordably) changed. I get it.

But it didn't have to be that way, and while the redundancy aspect is a plus...reliable connectivity is better...for me at least. Personal I know. I also don't know if having 17 controllers is the majority use case here. Most people only have a handful within a few feet of each other.

They are improving things as they go so who knows there may be something in the future like that. I noticed I no longer get a alert for every controller for no communication when the internet goes out which used to happen. Now I only get one for the collective. Also I noticed instead of all the controllers showing up separately in bluetooth mode they show as the collective now. I think that occurred when the emergency mode came about. So who knows they make a controller that has a CAT 5 port one of these days and you could possibly set that one as your preferred wifi master. I am not sure if that would be possible or not but it is an idea.

 

[jmcdona6]

They are improving things as they go so who knows there may be something in the future like that. I noticed I no longer get a alert for every controller for no communication when the internet goes out which used to happen. Now I only get one for the collective. Also I noticed instead of all the controllers showing up separately in bluetooth mode they show as the collective now. I think that occurred when the emergency mode came about. So who knows they make a controller that has a CAT 5 port one of these days and you could possibly set that one as your preferred wifi master. I am not sure if that would be possible or not but it is an idea.

Who knows. And I agree, they are actively improving and putting out new product (just not the Maven!). Tons of positive things I could argue on their behalf. This just isn't one of them.

 

[n2585722]

Who knows. And I agree, they are actively improving and putting out new product (just not the Maven!). Tons of positive things I could argue on their behalf. This just isn't one of them.

Did you see the pod cast they posted on youtube. It was an update on the Maven that came out a couple of months ago where they go over the changes they made to the Maven. Here is a link to it if you have not seen it yet . The things recently released is not new tech to them it is juste what is on the particular new controller, but everything is a
ready on other controllers but with different other inputs and outputs. The Blenny for example is just a Minnow with 4 dosing pumps instead of 2 with a couple of drive ports added to the ports. All of which are already on other controllers.

 

[BeanAnimal]

If they are all connected through their common bus, then only one unit needs to have hardwired ethernet.


Anyway -- I am going to repeat this for everyone -- as it appears to be a common misunderstanding amongst consumers and even device manufacturers and their support staff.

A 5GHz radio and SSID does not cause 2.4 GHz connection problems if the device is ONLY a 2.4 GHz device. FULL STOP. The same with a 2.4 GHz radio and SSID. It is impossible for it to interfere with a 5 GHz only device.

You do not need to have separate APS or isolate SSIDs for 2.4 GHz only IoT devices. FULL STOP. It is misinformation.

The only time that this comes into play is when a device has BOTH 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz radios with the SAME SSID. THE IoT device (any device really) will have trouble determining which radio to stay connected to. This is called "band flap". Higher end devices (your iPhone) can "band steer" and behave in a logical and "sticky" manner. Simple IoT WiFi chipsets don't have this capability and tend to flap.

So TLDR - if a device is 2.4 GHz only, you don't need an isolated 2.4 GHz AP or SSID.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Did you see the pod cast they posted on youtube. It was an update on the Maven that came out a couple of months ago where they go over the changes they made to the Maven.

LOL — that video was basically a spin machine admission that they had no product when they announced it and had no realistic chance of shipping by "black friday" let alone any time soon. It was the opposite of them being "transparent -- it was pure damage control. What made it worse was them trying to reframe the lack of product as delayed for improvements and spinning DRM-locked reagents like they’re some kind of bonus for the user. It was rather off putting, not exciting.

 

[n2585722]

If they are all connected through their common bus, then only one unit needs to have hardwired ethernet.


Anyway -- I am going to repeat this for everyone -- as it appears to be a common misunderstanding amongst consumers and even device manufacturers and their support staff.

A 5GHz radio and SSID does not cause 2.4 GHz connection problems if the device is ONLY a 2.4 GHz device. FULL STOP. The same with a 2.4 GHz radio and SSID. It is impossible for it to interfere with a 5 GHz only device.

You do not need to have separate APS or isolate SSIDs for 2.4 GHz only IoT devices. FULL STOP. It is misinformation.

The only time that this comes into play is when a device has BOTH 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz radios with the SAME SSID. THE IoT device (any device really) will have trouble determining which radio to stay connected to. This is called "band flap". Higher end devices (your iPhone) can "band steer" and behave in a logical and "sticky" manner. Simple IoT WiFi chipsets don't have this capability and tend to flap.

So TLDR - if a device is 2.4 GHz only, you don't need an isolated 2.4 GHz AP or SSID.

You are correct the issue is the wifi power strips can connect to either band but to communicate with the Hydros controllers the way they communicate they have to be on 2.4ghz and the same channel as the Hydros controllers are on. So even if the Hydros controllers did do 5ghz the wifi strips and the controller would still need to be on the same channel to communicate with each other. Most IOT devices do not communicate locally but this was done so if internet is lost as long a wifi is still good the controller can still control the wifi device without having internet. The only issue with that is some ISP provided routers will also quit if there is not ISP connection. So ISP provided routers may not be a good idea.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You are correct the issue is the wifi power strips can connect to either

Then back to poor design. Most of their products are 2.4 GHz but their wifi strips do both?? Then there is absolutely no reason that the 5 GHz radio shouldn't have simple "disable" feature. Problem solved.

band but to communicate with the Hydros controllers the way they communicate they have to be on 2.4ghz and the same channel as the Hydros controllers are on.

See above, it is LAZY deign.

So even if the Hydros controllers did do 5ghz the wifi strips and the controller would still need to be on the same channel to communicate with each other. Most IOT devices do not communicate locally but this was done so if internet is lost as long a wifi is still good

It sounds like there may be some confusion about how TCP/IP works. Any device on the same subnet can communicate, regardless of SSID or WiFi channel. That behavior is completely independent of 2.4 vs. 5 GHz.

If these devices are meshing using the same SSID as your home network, that introduces all kinds of potential problems unless the meshing is extremely well engineered. However, even with solid engineering, it’s poor or lazy design not to give users the option to lock dual-band devices to 2.4 GHz. Period.

If they actually behave the way you're describing, I’d bet a lot of the “network issues” people report are related to Spanning Tree Protocol, route cost confusion, and improper mesh behavior. Mesh networks can be a nightmare when poorly designed. SONOS is a textbook example of poor mesh implementation. They designed network devices without understanding ST P and that has led to two decades of network headaches that still aren't fully resolved because they backed themselves into a compatibility corner.

the controller can still control the wifi device without having internet. The only issue with that is some ISP provided routers will also quit if there is not ISP connection. So ISP provided routers may not be a good idea.

I am not aware of any "ISP" router that "quits" (shuts down Wifi) when there is a loss of internet. The "router" routes traffic form the LAN to the WAN -- it has nothing to do with "wifi". The DHCP server runs on the LAN interface and has nothing to do with "routing" or "wifi". Unplug the network cable and your WiFi and DHCP services chug along happily.

The "fault" or "issue" here is that shared SSIDs are EXTREMELY COMMON. Hydros can/could EASILY handle that fact by either selecting a single band (2.4 GHz or 5 Ghz) for their products, or allowing those will dual band radios to have a radio selector.

You're a nice guy -- but spinning every shortcoming of the product as some kind of benefit is no different than Carlos and David trying to spin DRM-locked reagent as a benefit to ensure quality.

 

[n2585722]

Then back to poor design. Most of their products are 2.4 GHz but their wifi strips do both?? Then there is absolutely no reason that the 5 GHz radio shouldn't have simple "disable" feature. Problem solved.


See above, it is LAZY deign.


It sounds like there may be some confusion about how TCP/IP works. Any device on the same subnet can communicate, regardless of SSID or WiFi channel. That behavior is completely independent of 2.4 vs. 5 GHz.

If these devices are meshing using the same SSID as your home network, that introduces all kinds of potential problems unless the meshing is extremely well engineered. However, even with solid engineering, it’s poor or lazy design not to give users the option to lock dual-band devices to 2.4 GHz. Period.

If they actually behave the way you're describing, I’d bet a lot of the “network issues” people report are related to Spanning Tree Protocol, route cost confusion, and improper mesh behavior. Mesh networks can be a nightmare when poorly designed. SONOS is a textbook example of poor mesh implementation. They designed network devices without understanding ST P and that has led to two decades of network headaches that still aren't fully resolved because they backed themselves into a compatibility corner.


I am not aware of any "ISP" router that "quits" (shuts down Wifi) when there is a loss of internet. The "router" routes traffic form the LAN to the WAN -- it has nothing to do with "wifi". The DHCP server runs on the LAN interface and has nothing to do with "routing" or "wifi". Unplug the network cable and your WiFi and DHCP services chug along happily.

The "fault" or "issue" here is that shared SSIDs are EXTREMELY COMMON. Hydros can/could EASILY handle that fact by either selecting a single band (2.4 GHz or 5 Ghz) for their products, or allowing those will dual band radios to have a radio selector.

You're a nice guy -- but spinning every shortcoming of the product as some kind of benefit is no different than Carlos and David trying to spin DRM-locked reagent as a benefit to ensure quality.

The communication is part of the Tuya protocol in the power strips and also Hydros does not make the wifi strips. So they cannot get the disable put into the firmware for the power strips. The manufacturer does not allow for custom firmware on those power strips. So firmware wise they are same as going to Home Depot and getting the same one there under a different brand. Most likely if it looks exactly like the Hydros but a different color and brand it is the same power strip. I talked to both Carlos and Don at a MACNA event years ago before the Hydros was actually out on the market about the way the power strip works when communications is lost and that is when I was told they were not allowed modifications to the firmware in the power strips from the manufacturer. It may have to do with the Tuya protocol which the strips are built under. I wanted it to default to off if communications was lost. I still got one when they came out anyway. I am happy with it since any critical devices I use drive ports or outlets on a XP8 or Launch instead of a wifi strip. I still use the strips though. They did not have the XP8 or Launch when I got one but I used the drive ports for my ATO, AWC pumps and the RODI solenoids instead of AC outlets. To begin with it was an expansion of my Archon controller but over time all the control has been given to the Hydros from the Archon. It has been over a 4 year period.

I had a Spectrum supplied router for a while and the wifi would quit on it when there was no connection to the Spectrum system. I now own my own router and just have a cable modem from Spectrum.

 

[rtparty]

The WiFi strips should have been dumped years ago. They were never a feasible solution

 

[reely989]

The WiFi strips should have been dumped years ago. They were never a feasible solution

They are not good. I don’t understand why they even want them with their name on them.

 

[n2585722]

They are not good. I don’t understand why they even want them with their name on them.

They are a standard Tuya protocol wifi power strip. They wanted to communicate with the power strips locally instead of using the Tuya cloud service so the controllers could still communicate without internet service as long as wifi is still up and running. If there is a communication issue between the power strips and the controllers you can get a access point and setup the controller and the power strip to that access point since you would give it a different name and set it up on an unused channel. You would just have to hardwire the access point to the router and then as far as the router s concerned it is a hardwired device and not a wifi device. I have 4 of the power strips and a wifi feeder and have had no issues with them since I replaced my router in December of 2023. There is alternatives now with the XP8 and Launch for controlled AC outputs so mine are used for non critical things. I have any dosing, ATO or AWC either on AC, drive ports or built into a controller.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The communication is part of the Tuya protocol in the power strips and also Hydros does not make the wifi strips.

You are still trying to spin poor design. They opted to use them, thus creating a very real and avoidable problem with their ecosystem. Is the whole ecosystem built on Tuya's SaaS?? If that is the case, then I want even less to do with it.

So they cannot get the disable put into the firmware for the power strips.

They can, if they pay for customization.

So firmware wise they are same as going to Home Depot and getting the same one there under a different brand.

Low effort (lazy) system engineering that creates issues for end users. That and most of Tuya's power strips are 2..4 GHz... so why would they choose a dual band device?

I was told they were not allowed modifications to the firmware in the power strips from the manufacturer.

Bottom line - they either did not want to pay for customization or they made a poor hardware choice by mixing and matching 2.4 GHz only and dual band devices.

I had a Spectrum supplied router for a while and the wifi would quit on it when there was no connection to the Spectrum system. I now own my own router and just have a cable modem from Spectrum.

WiFi does not go away if the internet drops - but some spectrum routers will not finish boot until the WAN is connected -- so WiFi may not come up on cold boot. Spectrum is ranks rather low as far as ISPs go, I feel bad for people who don't have a better broadband choice.

 

[jmcdona6]

The communication is part of the Tuya protocol in the power strips and also Hydros does not make the wifi strips. So they cannot get the disable put into the firmware for the power strips. The manufacturer does not allow for custom firmware on those power strips. So firmware wise they are same as going to Home Depot and getting the same one there under a different brand. Most likely if it looks exactly like the Hydros but a different color and brand it is the same power strip. I talked to both Carlos and Don at a MACNA event years ago before the Hydros was actually out on the market about the way the power strip works when communications is lost and that is when I was told they were not allowed modifications to the firmware in the power strips from the manufacturer. It may have to do with the Tuya protocol which the strips are built under. I wanted it to default to off if communications was lost. I still got one when they came out anyway. I am happy with it since any critical devices I use drive ports or outlets on a XP8 or Launch instead of a wifi strip. I still use the strips though. They did not have the XP8 or Launch when I got one but I used the drive ports for my ATO, AWC pumps and the RODI solenoids instead of AC outlets. To begin with it was an expansion of my Archon controller but over time all the control has been given to the Hydros from the Archon. It has been over a 4 year period.

I had a Spectrum supplied router for a while and the wifi would quit on it when there was no connection to the Spectrum system. I now own my own router and just have a cable modem from Spectrum.

If they knew the wifi strips were bunk even before release...why did they release them? They could have designed their own...they are more than capable of doing so. Found another vendor if not. Even if they cost 2-3 times what they do now because of that they would still be way cheaper than their competitor and still a tier cheaper than their full service product (XP8).

Again...I don't hate Hydros. I like it actually. I like what Carlos and crew are doing. But they arent a budget option anymore. They aren't some alternate product. They are trying to compete as a mainstream premium option. If they aren't going to fall on their faces they need to start thinking about these kinds of things. Releasing crap products because it "is what it is" isn't going to support their brand's long-term success.

Which circles back to the Maven...which this thread is about. Glad to see they seem to NOT be falling into that trap. Though their communication strategy has been a massive failure to date.

 

[BeanAnimal]

..

 

[reely989]

They are a standard Tuya protocol wifi power strip. They wanted to communicate with the power strips locally instead of using the Tuya cloud service so the controllers could still communicate without internet service as long as wifi is still up and running. If there is a communication issue between the power strips and the controllers you can get a access point and setup the controller and the power strip to that access point since you would give it a different name and set it up on an unused channel. You would just have to hardwire the access point to the router and then as far as the router s concerned it is a hardwired device and not a wifi device. I have 4 of the power strips and a wifi feeder and have had no issues with them since I replaced my router in December of 2023. There is alternatives now with the XP8 and Launch for controlled AC outputs so mine are used for non critical things. I have any dosing, ATO or AWC either on AC, drive ports or built into a controller.

I’ve tried them several times and have found them junk each time. Connectivity issues every time. Nothing else they have ever gives me connectivity issues. None of the other 100 smart things in my house give me issues. I like hydros a lot but their WiFi strip isn’t good.

 

[n2585722]

I’ve tried them several times and have found them junk each time. Connectivity issues every time. Nothing else they have ever gives me connectivity issues. None of the other 100 smart things in my house give me issues. I like hydros a lot but their WiFi strip isn’t good.

I have 4 wifi strips and a wifi feeder and do not have any issues with them. How old are the wifi strips you are having issues with and what is the issue you are having with them?

 

[reely989]

I have 4 wifi strips and a wifi feeder and do not have any issues with them. How old are the wifi strips you are having issues with and what is the issue you are having with them?

Oh I gave up on those a long time ago. Long gone

 

[n2585722]

Oh I gave up on those a long time ago. Long gone

I did have issues two to three times a week with them at first. I have multiple controllers in the collective so I tried different ones as the wifi master and that did not help. Also since all of them would have the issue at the same time the odds of all of them having the same issue at the same time was not very likely. That left the router. In December of 2023 I got a new car and added it to my wifi and after that every time I would come home in the car the wifi would go nuts so I replaced the router and have not had any issues with the wifi strips or wifi feeder since then. It also fixed the issue with the car causing the wifi to go nuts also. So my router was the culprit for me even though before the car nothing else was having the issue that I could tell anyway. I still do not use them for anything critical but I still use them quite a bit.

 

[reely989]

I did have issues two to three times a week with them at first. I have multiple controllers in the collective so I tried different ones as the wifi master and that did not help. Also since all of them would have the issue at the same time the odds of all of them having the same issue at the same time was not very likely. That left the router. In December of 2023 I got a new car and added it to my wifi and after that every time I would come home in the car the wifi would go nuts so I replaced the router and have not had any issues with the wifi strips or wifi feeder since then. It also fixed the issue with the car causing the wifi to go nuts also. So my router was the culprit for me even though before the car nothing else was having the issue that I could tell anyway. I still do not use them for anything critical but I still use them quite a bit.

I just t replaced them with Kasa smart strips and haven’t had an issue with them at all.