Hydros Maven is Delayed

[areefer01]

They have the device at shows

My gut read after talking to them is that they’re trying to get accuracy and reliability down so we can get a real win in the hobby

Hydros is making a play for the throne and they want to make sure they stick the landing

Better to delay and delay and delay than dump it onto the market and have it riddled with problems

Auto testers are the most complex thing the reefing hobby has ever tried to do - nothing else even comes close - you have to mix regeants and get results and it has to be reliable and accurate and easy to clean and it can’t cost $5,000 - ooof.

Anyway that’s my read and soap box that nobody asked for

No, it isn't vaporware as they have a product being showed as you mentioned. It is, on the other hand, taking them a bit longer than what they anticipated at least to the hobby.

With regards to your point about accuracy, reliability, and sticking their landing that can be viewed as market speak and a dig at other manufactures. Neptune has been doing automated testing for a good spell now and the NP has had several firmware changes that many are reporting it helped. Then there are other kits out there be it the ION or alktronic, etc.

I think some hobbyist are frustrated that it is delayed and while I do not agree I understand the point of view.

 

[BeanAnimal]

They have the device at shows

My gut read after talking to them is that they’re trying to get accuracy and reliability down so we can get a real win in the hobby

A real win in the hobby? They run a business, they are looking for a "real win" for them -- but they painted themselves into a corner.

Hydros is making a play for the throne and they want to make sure they stick the landing

From where I sit, they appear to keep tripping over their own feet.

Better to delay and delay and delay than dump it onto the market and have it riddled with problems

Would it not have been smarter to not announce in the fist place -- than have to carefully straddle a fence every time they speak -- our go radio silent to prevent being put on the spot? When the do speak it is patronizing spin and word parsing -- as if we are all naive enough to not see through it. May as well be listening to a politician

Auto testers are the most complex thing the reefing hobby has ever tried to do

Auto testers are extremely simple. The issue is that the market is tiny and the cost to produce a quality tester is high. There are no margins and the only long term money boils down to consumables -- not hard good sales. They have an edge, as they can subsidize some of the margin with the rest of their busienss.

 

[BeanAnimal]

No, it isn't vaporware as they have a product being showed as you mentioned.

Showing prototypes does not equate to a viable product.

I think some hobbyist are frustrated that it is delayed and while I do not agree I understand the point of view.

I don't care one way or the other. I think the entire ecosystem has (had?) a lot of potential but is being poorly developed, managed and marketed. The cloud dependence and DRM'd consumables are non starters for me and I would argue that same the sentiment is growing in most markets.

 

[jmcdona6]

A real win in the hobby? They run a business, they are looking for a "real win" for them -- but they painted themselves into a corner.


From where I sit, they appear to keep tripping over their own feet.


Would it not have been smarter to not announce in the fist place -- than have to carefully straddle a fence every time they speak -- our go radio silent to prevent being put on the spot? When the do speak it is patronizing spin and word parsing -- as if we are all naive enough to not see through it. May as well be listening to a politician



Auto testers are extremely simple. The issue is that the market is tiny and the cost to produce a quality tester is high. There are no margins and the only long term money boils down to consumables -- not hard good sales. They have an edge, as they can subsidize some of the margin with the rest of their busienss.

Addressing if it was smarter to wait vs announcing early. If you go back the Trident NP and the Hydros were announced around the same time. People forget, it's not all about the tester, it's also about winning over the community on the overall ecosystem. If you buy a Trident NP you likely aren't going to buy Hydros and vice versa.

I believe the strategy was to announce the Maven because they thought they were close and it would keep some people from going to Neptune and instead waiting to see what Hydros had to offer. Of course at the time they didn't realize how long they were actually out from release or how little a threat the Trident NP was. Hindsight and all...

It worked at least a little. I personally chose to go with Hydros because I liked what I saw and thought the Maven would come out by time I needed it (planned my tank Summer of 2024). If I would have known it was going to be delayed like it has I would have gone Neptune. Though I really do enjoy my Hydros system overall. Just a little salty about paying $900 for the X10/iV Pro to get automated alkalinity testing...wasn't what I had in mind when I committed.

 

[Nor'easter Reefer]

Addressing if it was smarter to wait vs announcing early. If you go back the Trident NP and the Hydros were announced around the same time. People forget, it's not all about the tester, it's also about winning over the community on the overall ecosystem. If you buy a Trident NP you likely aren't going to buy Hydros and vice versa.

I believe the strategy was to announce the Maven because they thought they were close and it would keep some people from going to Neptune and instead waiting to see what Hydros had to offer. Of course at the time they didn't realize how long they were actually out from release or how little a threat the Trident NP was. Hindsight and all...

It worked at least a little. I personally chose to go with Hydros because I liked what I saw and thought the Maven would come out by time I needed it (planned my tank Summer of 2024). If I would have known it was going to be delayed like it has I would have gone Neptune. Though I really do enjoy my Hydros system overall. Just a little salty about paying $900 for the X10/iV Pro to get automated alkalinity testing...wasn't what I had in mind when I committed.

I feel this...

 

[BeanAnimal]

Addressing if it was smarter to wait vs announcing early.... Trident NP and the Hydros were announced... I believe the strategy was to announce the Maven because they thought they were close and it would keep some people from going to Neptune

They announced a product an April 2024 with nothing more than a concept and have use carrot and stick marketing "updates" ever since. They weren't close -- they reacted to the competitors release with an idea, not a product.

They leaked "black friday" and waited until the last minuted to retract and say "a few months.

Q1 came and they said "well soon... "
Q2 came and there is silence and Q3 is days away....
Black Friday is right around the corner.

I would say that by this point, many people who waited to buy-in have moved-on and many others are questioning transparency. The gleeful spin on DRM consumables being for your benefit didn't help.

The pre-product announcement and transparency to date could have been handled so much better -- but they do not appear to handle product branding and marketing very well -- at least that is my opinion.

I do honestly look forward to the product release and hope that they rethink the consumables lock and absolute reliance on a cloud connection.

 

[ReefED!]

Auto testers are not simple

There’s nothing simple about the motorized components that automatically pull the right amount of sample, the right amount of regent, and get an accurate reading - while staying within a reasonable size and budget

If it was simple we’d have have them everywhere already.

And there are easier ways to make money then gear for a niche hobby that has low margins. If you’ve met the people behind these companies none of them are living in mansions and sailing in yachts - with maybe a tiny few exceptions.


Again - it’s better that they have delays and get it right than put something that will fail on the market.

 

[RoanokeReef]

I’m just glad they spent the extra time to implement DRM with a company that produces knock off reagents for their competitor. Gotta get it right, ya know.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Auto testers are not simple

There’s nothing simple about...

They may be "complex" from your perspective, but the chemistry is simple, as are the mechanics.

while staying within a reasonable size and budget

That is the point that I made

If it was simple we’d have have them everywhere already.

The market is too niche to have them everywhere. So margins have to be insanely high or recurring revenue (consumables and subscription) have to become the profit center. The reality is that a stand alone product and company are not likely to survive long term. You can't sell enough units to stay afloat. See below....

And there are easier ways to make money then gear for a movie hobby that has low margins

If there were easier ways to make money, they would be doing it. The hardware sales will never be enough to remain profitable. The product has to compliment other hardware in the ecosystem and somewhere there has to be recurring revenue. People don't re-buy durable goods. So part of the game CV (and others) are hoping to play is creating proprietary ecosystems. So once you invest, you won't leave. But for that to work you need to keep spending money on consumables, support or subscription services.

Again - it’s better that they have delays and get it right than put something that will fail on the market.

As once prospective customer, I would argue that it is better to be honest and transparent form the start.

You are correct, they have no choice now but to delay until they can deliver a viable product.

 

[Fenral]

I hate to say i find myself agreeing with @BeanAnimal - i have been greatly let down by their marketing claims over the past two years…although I am not even sure i would use the words “durable goods” to describe their products…

 

[BeanAnimal]

I’m just glad they spent the extra time to implement DRM with a company that produces knock off reagents for their competitor. Gotta get it right, ya know.

Yeah - that is certainly an irony worth noting.

ABC undercuts Neptune.
CV signs ABC to distribute... and undercut their competitor.
ABC stops selling direct and instead contracts to CV for DRM'd reagents so they can't be undercut.

Good business form CV's and ABC's perspective and -- not sure how customers are going to swallow the DRMd reagent. It is pretty much a deal breaker for me. It is not so much about price, but rather the preemptive and deliberate action to prevent 3rd party consumables -- and then try to "sell" the idea is a benefit for "quality control". Back to that transparency thing. I don't care for marketing slime.

 

[jmcdona6]

They announced a product an April 2024 with nothing more than a concept and have use carrot and stick marketing "updates" ever since. They weren't close -- they reacted to the competitors release with an idea, not a product.

They leaked "black friday" and waited until the last minuted to retract and say "a few months.

Q1 came and they said "well soon... "
Q2 came and there is silence and Q3 is days away....
Black Friday is right around the corner.

I would say that by this point, many people who waited to buy-in have moved-on and many others are questioning transparency. The gleeful spin on DRM consumables being for your benefit didn't help.

The pre-product announcement and transparency to date could have been handled so much better -- but they do not appear to handle product branding and marketing very well -- at least that is my opinion.

I do honestly look forward to the product release and hope that they rethink the consumables lock and absolute reliance on a cloud connection.

We agree and I also moved on. Do you think I'm going to pay 1200-1400 for the Maven after over paying for a Hydros compatible Alkalinity testing solution?


Maybe my next tank...but that ship has unfortunately sailed for this one. Hope they make an awesome product though!

 

[n2585722]

We agree and I also moved on. Do you think I'm going to pay 1200-1400 for the Maven after over paying for a Hydros compatible Alkalinity testing solution?


Maybe my next tank...but that ship has unfortunately sailed for this one. Hope they make an awesome product though!

The reagent for the iV, X10 is a lot less expensive than the color changing type reagent is so if you plan on doing multiple alkalinity test per day the iV, X10 you will need. Also the Maven test contents has to be disposed of and the iV, X10 test contents can be returned to the tank after testing.

 

[braaap]

Yeah - that is certainly an irony worth noting.

ABC undercuts Neptune.
CV signs ABC to distribute... and undercut their competitor.
ABC stops selling direct and instead contracts to CV for DRM'd reagents so they can't be undercut.

Good business form CV's and ABC's perspective and -- not sure how customers are going to swallow the DRMd reagent. It is pretty much a deal breaker for me. It is not so much about price, but rather the preemptive and deliberate action to prevent 3rd party consumables -- and then try to "sell" the idea is a benefit for "quality control". Back to that transparency thing. I don't care for marketing slime.

Coralvue is all about it slime. Proof is in how the people that are the face of their company act.

This following isnt at you bean. Lol

Auto tester are simple. Step pumps/pinch valves etc are easy to calculate. So you know the volume being moved. The mechanics are simple. And the test is simple numbers. It’s a known quantity. At this point it’s working around user added variables such as improper setup or poorly mixed reagents etc.

I’m also annoyed by the entire ABC thing. I got zero notice they sold out. I used to buy the premixed. I have no LFS for 200 miles. So now I had to buy the bulk mix. But I did know about ABC making the reagents for the Maven back when they announced the Maven. They have been working with Jonas for months at that point. But this goes back to coralvue being slimy. They have zero shame in limiting access to products. They have been doing it for years. And then they just pull stuff from market when they get tired of distributing it.


All that said I just got another NP. I’m tired of waiting. The rest of my stuff is Hydros. I got it cheap and intent to do some testing on my own to try and get reliable results. Not sure it will be successful or not. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also Coralvue marketing is atrocious. I do not care who you are. Programming a Hydros is NOT easier than Apex. Not even close. It’s actually comically bad. The only reason I switched is because I didn’t trust my Apex. Constantly freezing or disconnecting etc. I have never had that issue with my hydros system.

 

[BeanAnimal]

We agree and I also moved on. Do you think I'm going to pay 1200-1400 for the Maven after over paying for a Hydros compatible Alkalinity testing solution?


Maybe my next tank...but that ship has unfortunately sailed for this one. Hope they make an awesome product though!

I am not cheering for their failure by any means. In fact I truly hope they have success.

However, I am personally glad that I did not buy into the ecosystem. As I said above, the realization that there is such a heavy cloud dependence is not compatible with my needs. And, the plans for the DRM'd reagents is pretty a much a deal breaker for me. I am also not very fond of the marketing itself, or the spin I see in their videos. I imagine that many others are fine with it.

 

[n2585722]

Coralvue is all about it slime. Proof is in how the people that are the face of their company act.

This following isnt at you bean. Lol

Auto tester are simple. Step pumps/pinch valves etc are easy to calculate. So you know the volume being moved. The mechanics are simple. And the test is simple numbers. It’s a known quantity. At this point it’s working around user added variables such as improper setup or poorly mixed reagents etc.

I’m also annoyed by the entire ABC thing. I got zero notice they sold out. I used to buy the premixed. I have no LFS for 200 miles. So now I had to buy the bulk mix. But I did know about ABC making the reagents for the Maven back when they announced the Maven. They have been working with Jonas for months at that point. But this goes back to coralvue being slimy. They have zero shame in limiting access to products. They have been doing it for years. And then they just pull stuff from market when they get tired of distributing it.


All that said I just got another NP. I’m tired of waiting. The rest of my stuff is Hydros. I got it cheap and intent to do some testing on my own to try and get reliable results. Not sure it will be successful or not. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also Coralvue marketing is atrocious. I do not care who you are. Programming a Hydros is NOT easier than Apex. Not even close. It’s actually comically bad. The only reason I switched is because I didn’t trust my Apex. Constantly freezing or disconnecting etc. I have never had that issue with my hydros system.

From what I have seen posted of Apex code I would not want to deal with that at all. For me the Hydros is easy to setup to get it to do what I want. I have a complex setup with it controlling my RODI and mixing station. It auto refills my DI reservoir. It transfers the contents from my mix tank to the saltwater reservoir when it goes low and the contents in the mix tank is ready to use. It will then refill the mix tank with RODI after the transfer completes. All I have to do is add the salt mix and press a button when the mix contents is ready for use. It also does all the normal things at the tank along with alkalinity testing and dynamic dosing a KH buffer based on the test. I am currently up to 15 controllers in my main collective. It also does the ATO and AWC with the reservoirs in the garage over 35ft from the tank using dosing pumps.

 

[braaap]

From what I have seen posted of Apex code I would not want to deal with that at all. For me the Hydros is easy to setup to get it to do what I want. I have a complex setup with it controlling my RODI and mixing station. It auto refills my DI reservoir. It transfers the contents from my mix tank to the saltwater reservoir when it goes low and the contents in the mix tank is ready to use. It will then refill the mix tank with RODI after the transfer completes. All I have to do is add the salt mix and press a button when the mix contents is ready for use. It also does all the normal things at the tank along with alkalinity testing and dynamic dosing a KH buffer based on the test. I am currently up to 15 controllers in my main collective. It also does the ATO and AWC with the reservoirs in the garage over 35ft from the tank using dosing pumps.

Apex literally has step by step programming. And its programming is basic math terms. If, then, and, or. It is VERY simple. Meanwhile Hydros uses terms I’ve never heard of or used. Scheduling that doesn’t make sense. And it also can’t be tuned nearly as well as an Apex. And don’t get me started on the probe graphing. Yikes.

 

[jmcdona6]

I am not cheering for their failure by any means. In fact I truly hope they have success.

However, I am personally glad that I did not buy into the ecosystem. As I said above, the realization that there is such a heavy cloud dependence is not compatible with my needs. And, the plans for the DRM'd reagents is pretty a much a deal breaker for me. I am also not very fond of the marketing itself, or the spin I see in their videos. I imagine that many others are fine with it.

The cloud/wifi dependence is a huge negative. I've actually had to modify my houses wifi infrastructure to make it more resilient. I shouldn't have to buy additional things to make it work as intended. The marketing to me isn't my style either, but their products seem well constructed and in my experience support is top notch. When I have had Neptune equipment I have always been shocked at how cheap it felt (not in the wallet unfortunately!). Hydros equipment feels quality the minute you take it out the box.

For me its the ease of the App and programing. I can modify complex schedules on my phone in-between cooking dinner. Apex can do everything it can, even more actually, but it makes you work for it.

Another happy outcome, I have also sort of fallen in love with the X10/iV Pro alkalinity testing. Super cheap reagent. Easy to maintain. Direct integration into Hydros. Easy to troubleshoot. Overpriced, but now I have it I enjoy it far more than my previous Trident...and I think the Maven will ultimately be more of the same. Cool gadget that cost too much to run and so complex you find yourself in the cabinet every other week trying to sort out an error.

 

[ReefED!]

Auto tester are simple. Step pumps/pinch valves etc are easy to calculate. So you know the volume being moved. The mechanics are simple. And the test is simple numbers. It’s a known quantity. At this point it’s working around user added variables such as improper setup or poorly mixed reagents etc.

There is nothing simple about getting this to work over and over and over again with any kind of reliability and accuracy, especially not for the whole suite of tests the Maven promises to do

Maybe it sounds simple, but from an engineering standpoint it isn’t.

If it’s not accurate , it’s worthless, and it needs to be accurate and usable over and over again while maintaining that accuracy and then not cost a fortune - hard problem to solve

 

[braaap]

There is nothing simple about getting this to work over and over and over again with any kind of reliability and accuracy, especially not for the whole suite of tests the Maven promises to do

Maybe it sounds simple, but from an engineering standpoint it isn’t.

If it’s not accurate , it’s worthless, and it needs to be accurate and usable over and over again while maintaining that accuracy and then not cost a fortune - hard problem to solve

It is actually extremely easy to get it to work with reliability and accuracy. The parts are VERY simple. The test standards are as well. The problem is literally in the reagents right now. They are having issues with either them settling out or "going bad" right now. That is why they added a mixing plate for some reagents. The scuttlebutt is that after adding the stirring plate the tests are coming back quite accurate.

The Trident is very basic. A small peristaltic pump and some pinch valves. The testing standard didn't change. It is basically adding pumps and the light sensor that a Hanna uses. Arguably writing the code to perform the tests is the hardest part.

The hardest problem is cost. The parts are cheap. For a trident it is less than $100 at scale. The cost is in the human element. You have to cover your manpower costs. Obviously we don't know all the internal parts on the Maven.

The Trident NP is literally a Trident. All the internals are the same. They made the casing a different plastic color. That was all in the code. Adding a mixing plate might fix the poor results of the tests for phosphate.