I swear I'm never buying another fish....QT woes inside

[pmaddox]

Hey, guys. I've been in the hobby for going on 3 years.

I upgraded this Summer from a 34g and 28g to a 150g Reef tank.

Most of the fish in the aquarium were moved from my old tank or acquired from other hobbyists from their tanks (except for the green chromis that I put in the tank in the beginning).

I am recently QT'ing for the first time (trying to be a big boy and do things right) and so far it's been absolutely terrible.

9/30/16
I went to Petco and bought:

• Powder Blue Tang
• Anthias
• 3 Bengai Cardinals (small)

They went into my 34gallon, fully-cycled but bare-bottom *I was in the process of breaking down the livestock and selling off liverock / corals. The tank was bare except for GSP on the backwall. I added some PVC for hiding.

10/1/16
I notice symptoms of ich (VERY slight. Just 5 or so white bumps) on the Powder Blue and began to research treatment and ask for feedback with photos. *Actual photo of the fish at this time:
Link to image if embed doesn't work

I was racing to find a plan of action because I had to leave for a family vacation on 10/3. I went to the store and bought some garlic cloves. I finally chopped a couple of cloves and expressed the juice into a shot glass so it could be absorbed into food while I was gone and they all ate it well.

10/3/16 - 10/6/2016
Gone on vacation. Housesitter watched fish and fed them with the garlic soaked food. I returned on 10/6 to see the Powder Blue looking pretty great!

10/7/16
BOOM. The next day he's covered in white spots and it's clear to me that the parasites have exploded during my time gone.

That night, I set up my 20 gallon long QT tank that same day with about 75% cycled water from my display and 25% fresh saltwater. I added some cycled media from my refugium to the tank and a HOB filter along with a heater and powerhead. I added copper to the tank at the amount called for for Copper Power : 2.5ppm

10/8/16
The next morning the tang was dead in the tank. Parameters were okay, but ammonia was a bit high .5ppm actually. I raced off to Petco and bought some Fluval bacterial booster to help speed up and augment the cycling. 20mL of bacteria was added to the water. I also added Seachem alert badges in the tank to watch ammonia

10/12/16
I found 1 of the 3 bengai cardinals lethargic and floating in the flow. He was dead.

10/17/17
I noticed the anthias was twitching and bouncing off of the PVC. Worried it could be ich still in the tank even though i've been treating but Google convinced me it was fluke worms. Plan to treat with Prazi Pro when Copper treatment is over.

10/20/16
I found the 2nd of 3 bengai cardinals lethargic and floating around (still alive) in the tank. I removed him with my hand and placed him in my display inside a floating breeder box to try and save him. At the time of writing this he's lying on his side and breathing slowly but I am not hopeful.

Ammonia alert badge is showing less than .02 ppm. I checked Nitrites and they were HIGH. Easily 5.0ppm or more. I do an water change of approximately 5 gallons and check again. The Nitrites are cut down but still around 2.0ppm I'd say. **I'm told in another forum that nitrites are not a problem for saltwater fish and that couldn't be the reason for the bengai's issues**

I test for Nitrates and get about 10-15ppm.


SO. What the heck do I do now?
I've diluted my copper treatment. I still have nitrates and nitrites at present and I have 2 of the 5 fish left. One anthias. One Cardinal. (Assuming the other sick one doesn't make it over course.)

I was 13 days into copper treatment today and as of now that's disrupted.

**I was told Humblefish is great at these situations. Tagged him / her.**

 

[ksfulk]

@Humblefish @melypr1985

There are your tags.

Looks like you have a lot going on, and some of it is good, but being reactionary is going to haunt you if thats your plan of attack for QT.

Just some general pointers, I'll let the professionals handle the finer details.

• In general, be prepared to do a 10-25% water change on a QT tank every other day (or more frequently depending on fish load). Be sure to maintain the proper dosage levels of your treatment with your replacement (new) water.
• When using an Ammonia Badge, look at it straight on with a light aimed right at the badge - using ambient light can cause issues when reading these items. Also the badges can take some time to change readings (IE they wont immediately turn a different color once you do a water change).
• Aerate your water in QT - use a cheap air pump and an airstone. A LOT of QT issues are caused when the water isnt oxygenated enough. Most medications can reduce available oxygen.
• A freshwater dip on recently dead fish can tell you if you have flukes present or not.

Ive never checked nitrates or any other chemical parameters in my QT tanks save for Ammonia and Salinity. If you're doing normal water changes, you should be ok here. Its not a reef, so its not as concerning in my experience. Fish only systems often have nitrate levels well above 100ppm without any detrimental effects to the fish. My last round of QT had about 28 fish in a 40g breeder for two months without any losses.

A PBT in a 34 gallon tank is a different issue, but I'll let that go.

 

[Duke4Life]

Have you been testing copper?

 

[Congaken]

Hey, guys. I've been in the hobby for going on 3 years.

I upgraded this Summer from a 34g and 28g to a 150g Reef tank.

Most of the fish in the aquarium were moved from my old tank or acquired from other hobbyists from their tanks (except for the green chromis that I put in the tank in the beginning).

I am recently QT'ing for the first time (trying to be a big boy and do things right) and so far it's been absolutely terrible.

9/30/16
I went to Petco and bought:

• Powder Blue Tang
• Anthias
• 3 Bengai Cardinals (small)

They went into my 34gallon, fully-cycled but bare-bottom *I was in the process of breaking down the livestock and selling off liverock / corals. The tank was bare except for GSP on the backwall. I added some PVC for hiding.

10/1/16
I notice symptoms of ich (VERY slight. Just 5 or so white bumps) on the Powder Blue and began to research treatment and ask for feedback with photos. *Actual photo of the fish at this time:
Link to image if embed doesn't work

I was racing to find a plan of action because I had to leave for a family vacation on 10/3. I went to the store and bought some garlic cloves. I finally chopped a couple of cloves and expressed the juice into a shot glass so it could be absorbed into food while I was gone and they all ate it well.

10/3/16 - 10/6/2016
Gone on vacation. Housesitter watched fish and fed them with the garlic soaked food. I returned on 10/6 to see the Powder Blue looking pretty great!

10/7/16
BOOM. The next day he's covered in white spots and it's clear to me that the parasites have exploded during my time gone.

That night, I set up my 20 gallon long QT tank that same day with about 75% cycled water from my display and 25% fresh saltwater. I added some cycled media from my refugium to the tank and a HOB filter along with a heater and powerhead. I added copper to the tank at the amount called for for Copper Power : 2.5ppm

10/8/16
The next morning the tang was dead in the tank. Parameters were okay, but ammonia was a bit high .5ppm actually. I raced off to Petco and bought some Fluval bacterial booster to help speed up and augment the cycling. 20mL of bacteria was added to the water. I also added Seachem alert badges in the tank to watch ammonia

10/12/16
I found 1 of the 3 bengai cardinals lethargic and floating in the flow. He was dead.

10/17/17
I noticed the anthias was twitching and bouncing off of the PVC. Worried it could be ich still in the tank even though i've been treating but Google convinced me it was fluke worms. Plan to treat with Prazi Pro when Copper treatment is over.

10/20/16
I found the 2nd of 3 bengai cardinals lethargic and floating around (still alive) in the tank. I removed him with my hand and placed him in my display inside a floating breeder box to try and save him. At the time of writing this he's lying on his side and breathing slowly but I am not hopeful.

Ammonia alert badge is showing less than .02 ppm. I checked Nitrites and they were HIGH. Easily 5.0ppm or more. I do an water change of approximately 5 gallons and check again. The Nitrites are cut down but still around 2.0ppm I'd say. **I'm told in another forum that nitrites are not a problem for saltwater fish and that couldn't be the reason for the bengai's issues**

I test for Nitrates and get about 10-15ppm.


SO. what the heck do I do now?
I've diluted my copper treatment. I still have nitrates and nitrites at present and I have 2 of the 5 fish left. One anthias. One Cardinal. (Assuming the other sick one doesn't make it over course.)

I was 13 days into copper treatment today and as of now that's disrupted.

**I was told Humblefish is great at these situations. Tagged him / her.**

Humblefish has posts on how to do QT properly...In my opinion, the garlic was useless, the bacteria booster takes time if it works at all...you would have been better with AmmoLock or something like that...my guess is that it got away from you on vacation because you didn't medicate right away...I also think that diluting the copper treatment may have been another big mistake...also buying from Petco would be a red flag for me...I have been in fish...fresh and salt for forty years or so...with salt, there is only one way todo things and that is the right way, short cuts do not work in this hobby...please do some reading, get books , on line, etc...Good luck...

 

[Brew12]

Humblefish has posts on how to do QT properly...In my opinion, the garlic was useless, the bacteria booster takes time if it works at all...you would have been better with AmmoLock or something like that...my guess is that it got away from you on vacation because you didn't medicate right away...I also think that diluting the copper treatment may have been another big mistake...also buying from Petco would be a red flag for me...I have been in fish...fresh and salt for forty years or so...with salt, there is only one way todo things and that is the right way, short cuts do not work in this hobby...please do some reading, get books , on line, etc...Good luck...

I don't believe you can use AmmoLock in a copper treated tank due to the risk of an adverse reaction.

 

[Empress]

If you look at the very top of this page you'll see "Stickies". Click on that and you'll see a bunch of excellent information from Humblefish on how to Quarantine and How to Treat for Ich and Velvet. Start reading and you'll learn an immense amount on how to care for fish. Promise....your time will not be wasted. Don't give up.

 

[Brew12]

I have had a horrible time quarantining lately. Lost a school of firefish (my fault) and now a few yellow tail damsels. However, I would much rather have these issues in my QT than my DT!

 

[pmaddox]

Have you been testing copper?

Yes, i've been testing the copper because I wasn't sure if it would change with evaporation or not but it appeared to maintain its levels. Now I have diluted it with the water change and I need to decide what to do about that pronto.

 

[pmaddox]

I don't believe you can use AmmoLock in a copper treated tank due to the risk of an adverse reaction.

That is what I read and why I didn't do it. I used the bacteria to control ammonia and because the badge reported such low levels over time I didn't do water changes. I didn't think it was necessary.

 

[Congaken]

That is what I read and why I didn't do it. I used the bacteria to control ammonia and because the badge reported such low levels over time I didn't do water changes. I didn't think it was necessary.

Good question!...can you use AmmoLock in a copper treated tank...anyone have a definitive answer?

 

[Brew12]

Good question!...can you use AmmoLock in a copper treated tank...anyone have a definitive answer?

This is from the Seachem support forum, from one of their official moderators.

"The Ammonia Alert gives you a good reading to follow. However, I would not recommend the Ammo Lock product or any other ammonia binder - nor would I dose dechlorinators heavily. These types of products, in general, are all strong reducing agents. This is how they remove or detoxify chlorine. They can potentially break the chemical bonds in Cupramine and indeed most medications and therefore have the potential to degrade Cupramine and other meds making it/them potentially more toxic to the fish. Your best bet is to stick with the bacteria type products to keep ahead of the ammonia. If you feel Cycle is lacking you might try our Stability as another option. Stabilty has had very good reviews at many levels and I think it would be of benefit to you in your situation. Stability would enable you to keep control over the ammonia throughout the remainder of the treatment period."

 

[drawman]

Also I would try to slowly raise the copper levels over the course of a few days all at once can be quite the shock. With a real sick fish (especially with velvet) you may have to rush it I get it. Are you sure the PBT had ich and not velvet?

 

[Tautog]

Hey, guys. I've been in the hobby for going on 3 years.

I upgraded this Summer from a 34g and 28g to a 150g Reef tank.

Most of the fish in the aquarium were moved from my old tank or acquired from other hobbyists from their tanks (except for the green chromis that I put in the tank in the beginning).

I am recently QT'ing for the first time (trying to be a big boy and do things right) and so far it's been absolutely terrible.

9/30/16
I went to Petco and bought:

• Powder Blue Tang
• Anthias
• 3 Bengai Cardinals (small)

They went into my 34gallon, fully-cycled but bare-bottom *I was in the process of breaking down the livestock and selling off liverock / corals. The tank was bare except for GSP on the backwall. I added some PVC for hiding.

10/1/16
I notice symptoms of ich (VERY slight. Just 5 or so white bumps) on the Powder Blue and began to research treatment and ask for feedback with photos. *Actual photo of the fish at this time:
Link to image if embed doesn't work

I was racing to find a plan of action because I had to leave for a family vacation on 10/3. I went to the store and bought some garlic cloves. I finally chopped a couple of cloves and expressed the juice into a shot glass so it could be absorbed into food while I was gone and they all ate it well.

10/3/16 - 10/6/2016
Gone on vacation. Housesitter watched fish and fed them with the garlic soaked food. I returned on 10/6 to see the Powder Blue looking pretty great!

10/7/16
BOOM. The next day he's covered in white spots and it's clear to me that the parasites have exploded during my time gone.

That night, I set up my 20 gallon long QT tank that same day with about 75% cycled water from my display and 25% fresh saltwater. I added some cycled media from my refugium to the tank and a HOB filter along with a heater and powerhead. I added copper to the tank at the amount called for for Copper Power : 2.5ppm

10/8/16
The next morning the tang was dead in the tank. Parameters were okay, but ammonia was a bit high .5ppm actually. I raced off to Petco and bought some Fluval bacterial booster to help speed up and augment the cycling. 20mL of bacteria was added to the water. I also added Seachem alert badges in the tank to watch ammonia

10/12/16
I found 1 of the 3 bengai cardinals lethargic and floating in the flow. He was dead.

10/17/17
I noticed the anthias was twitching and bouncing off of the PVC. Worried it could be ich still in the tank even though i've been treating but Google convinced me it was fluke worms. Plan to treat with Prazi Pro when Copper treatment is over.

10/20/16
I found the 2nd of 3 bengai cardinals lethargic and floating around (still alive) in the tank. I removed him with my hand and placed him in my display inside a floating breeder box to try and save him. At the time of writing this he's lying on his side and breathing slowly but I am not hopeful.

Ammonia alert badge is showing less than .02 ppm. I checked Nitrites and they were HIGH. Easily 5.0ppm or more. I do an water change of approximately 5 gallons and check again. The Nitrites are cut down but still around 2.0ppm I'd say. **I'm told in another forum that nitrites are not a problem for saltwater fish and that couldn't be the reason for the bengai's issues**

I test for Nitrates and get about 10-15ppm.


SO. what the heck do I do now?
I've diluted my copper treatment. I still have nitrates and nitrites at present and I have 2 of the 5 fish left. One anthias. One Cardinal. (Assuming the other sick one doesn't make it over course.)

I was 13 days into copper treatment today and as of now that's disrupted.

**I was told Humblefish is great at these situations. Tagged him / her.**

I feel your pain!
Lost my PBT to Ick, among others, but a bunch lived, and still live today.
I could be wrong, but over the years, I always felt that once Ick attacked a fish hard, it was important to remove the fish before death. Once the fish is dying the parasite looks to claim its next victim.
I used KickIck, and haven't had a problem in over a year.

 

[Duke4Life]

If you can post pictures of the fish in question, this can help when properly diagnosing.

 

[Congaken]

This is from the Seachem support forum, from one of their official moderators.

"The Ammonia Alert gives you a good reading to follow. However, I would not recommend the Ammo Lock product or any other ammonia binder - nor would I dose dechlorinators heavily. These types of products, in general, are all strong reducing agents. This is how they remove or detoxify chlorine. They can potentially break the chemical bonds in Cupramine and indeed most medications and therefore have the potential to degrade Cupramine and other meds making it/them potentially more toxic to the fish. Your best bet is to stick with the bacteria type products to keep ahead of the ammonia. If you feel Cycle is lacking you might try our Stability as another option. Stabilty has had very good reviews at many levels and I think it would be of benefit to you in your situation. Stability would enable you to keep control over the ammonia throughout the remainder of the treatment period."

Very interesting!...

 

[Empress]

Could you post a picture of both the fish and your QT setup?

 

[melypr1985]

Good question!...can you use AmmoLock in a copper treated tank...anyone have a definitive answer?

The short answer is NO... never use ammonia binders in a tank with copper

 

[melypr1985]

Hey, guys. I've been in the hobby for going on 3 years.

I upgraded this Summer from a 34g and 28g to a 150g Reef tank.

Most of the fish in the aquarium were moved from my old tank or acquired from other hobbyists from their tanks (except for the green chromis that I put in the tank in the beginning).

I am recently QT'ing for the first time (trying to be a big boy and do things right) and so far it's been absolutely terrible.

9/30/16
I went to Petco and bought:

• Powder Blue Tang
• Anthias
• 3 Bengai Cardinals (small)

They went into my 34gallon, fully-cycled but bare-bottom *I was in the process of breaking down the livestock and selling off liverock / corals. The tank was bare except for GSP on the backwall. I added some PVC for hiding.

10/1/16
I notice symptoms of ich (VERY slight. Just 5 or so white bumps) on the Powder Blue and began to research treatment and ask for feedback with photos. *Actual photo of the fish at this time:
Link to image if embed doesn't work

I was racing to find a plan of action because I had to leave for a family vacation on 10/3. I went to the store and bought some garlic cloves. I finally chopped a couple of cloves and expressed the juice into a shot glass so it could be absorbed into food while I was gone and they all ate it well.

10/3/16 - 10/6/2016
Gone on vacation. Housesitter watched fish and fed them with the garlic soaked food. I returned on 10/6 to see the Powder Blue looking pretty great!

10/7/16
BOOM. The next day he's covered in white spots and it's clear to me that the parasites have exploded during my time gone.

That night, I set up my 20 gallon long QT tank that same day with about 75% cycled water from my display and 25% fresh saltwater. I added some cycled media from my refugium to the tank and a HOB filter along with a heater and powerhead. I added copper to the tank at the amount called for for Copper Power : 2.5ppm

10/8/16
The next morning the tang was dead in the tank. Parameters were okay, but ammonia was a bit high .5ppm actually. I raced off to Petco and bought some Fluval bacterial booster to help speed up and augment the cycling. 20mL of bacteria was added to the water. I also added Seachem alert badges in the tank to watch ammonia

10/12/16
I found 1 of the 3 bengai cardinals lethargic and floating in the flow. He was dead.

10/17/17
I noticed the anthias was twitching and bouncing off of the PVC. Worried it could be ich still in the tank even though i've been treating but Google convinced me it was fluke worms. Plan to treat with Prazi Pro when Copper treatment is over.

10/20/16
I found the 2nd of 3 bengai cardinals lethargic and floating around (still alive) in the tank. I removed him with my hand and placed him in my display inside a floating breeder box to try and save him. At the time of writing this he's lying on his side and breathing slowly but I am not hopeful.

Ammonia alert badge is showing less than .02 ppm. I checked Nitrites and they were HIGH. Easily 5.0ppm or more. I do an water change of approximately 5 gallons and check again. The Nitrites are cut down but still around 2.0ppm I'd say. **I'm told in another forum that nitrites are not a problem for saltwater fish and that couldn't be the reason for the bengai's issues**

I test for Nitrates and get about 10-15ppm.


SO. what the heck do I do now?
I've diluted my copper treatment. I still have nitrates and nitrites at present and I have 2 of the 5 fish left. One anthias. One Cardinal. (Assuming the other sick one doesn't make it over course.)

I was 13 days into copper treatment today and as of now that's disrupted.

**I was told Humblefish is great at these situations. Tagged him / her.**

I see several problems here that might help you in the future. First off, if you purchase fish from petco be prepared to treat them for ich/velvet right away not matter what they look like. I guarantee they have at least one of these. Powder Blues need strict QT and treatment even if you don't see any spots on them. They have such a thin slime coat that it provides next to no protection from parasites like ick. Not treating these fish right away was probably the start of the problems.

Next issue was the speed at which you brought up the copper. You want to (when your able) bring the copper levels up slowly over the course of several days. Fish can be shocked by a sudden rise in copper and it can often make them sick, weak or even cause death. I think some of these fish experienced this.

Lastly, the ammonia in the QT is very toxic to the fish. It can burn their gills and cause issues with their organs.

Don't get yourself down though. You can do this and be successful! It does sometimes take practice. You've gotten some great advice so far. There are some great stickies in this section of the forum with instructions and even pictures. Don't hesitate to ask any questions you might have.

 

[Paul B]

I agree with Meredith on the ammonia binders.

 

[Humblefish]

Good question!...can you use AmmoLock in a copper treated tank...anyone have a definitive answer?

I would not use any kind of ammonia reducer in the presence of copper; I don't even like using it with Prazipro, antibiotics, etc. Too difficult to predict any negative interaction issues.

Also, the presence of copper will render most liquid ammonia test kits useless; you will get nothing but false positives. Best to rely upon the ammonia alert badge FWIW.